Trump is in talks with Russia to end the war

[UltraBudgie]

If anyone cares to remember at this point:
The only reason Russia went into Ukraine was because Zelensky decided to cut off water and electricity to the southern portion of Ukraine, the area that was mostly inhabited by Ethnic Russians. Those people were pleading with Zelensky and with the EU to do something. Russia ended up having to go in on a humanitarian mission, then got attacked by Ukrainians military and mercenary groups. After a few months Zelensky was going to sit down with Russa and find a truce, but then Boris Johnson at the behest of NATO and the EU told Zelensky not to meet with Putin, and from there the war has been going on as is. 

At this point Zelensky only wants unconditional victory and is unwilling to settle for peace with Russia, which makes ending this war impossible. Russian just wants their deal of having a Black Sea port, and equal rights for Ethnic Russians in Ukraine. 

Countering against all this is the fact that NATO as a whole, exclusion of the US, needs Russia as an aggressor to stay relevant, and the EU needs Ukrainian money to continue grifting the US since the US pulled out of the Paris Climate Scam. 

Imagine if McCain, Graham, and Biden's groups didn't involve themselves in Ukraine back in '14, there would be no war.

Lol yeah, it was totally provoked. Every time the legacy media say "Russia's unprovoked aggression" it's like, cringe. Sure boys. Though at this point I think Russia is like "fuck it let's take Odesa too", haha. Can't say I blame them.

[Freeborn]

If anyone cares to remember at this point:
The only reason Russia went into Ukraine was because Zelensky decided to cut off water and electricity to the southern portion of Ukraine, the area that was mostly inhabited by Ethnic Russians. Those people were pleading with Zelensky and with the EU to do something. Russia ended up having to go in on a humanitarian mission, then got attacked by Ukrainians military and mercenary groups. After a few months Zelensky was going to sit down with Russa and find a truce, but then Boris Johnson at the behest of NATO and the EU told Zelensky not to meet with Putin, and from there the war has been going on as is. 

At this point Zelensky only wants unconditional victory and is unwilling to settle for peace with Russia, which makes ending this war impossible. Russian just wants their deal of having a Black Sea port, and equal rights for Ethnic Russians in Ukraine. 

Countering against all this is the fact that NATO as a whole, exclusion of the US, needs Russia as an aggressor to stay relevant, and the EU needs Ukrainian money to continue grifting the US since the US pulled out of the Paris Climate Scam. 

Imagine if McCain, Graham, and Biden's groups didn't involve themselves in Ukraine back in '14, there would be no war.

Russia has used every excuse possible in its attempts to justify its invasion of a non-threatening neighbour. None of them can legitimise its act of war.

'Humanitarian mission'?
Please, not even Putin has ever called it that.

Russia bribed the Ukrainian President of the time to renege on his election promise to forge closer links with the EU and instead chose to agree to trade deals with Russia.....all against the wishes of the majority of the Ukrainian people. He then brutally suppressed demonstrations against his corrupt dealings.

Russia was emboldened by the relative lack of response from the international community after its illegal annexation of Crimea. Kremlin funded and armed Militia's started agitating throughout the Luhansk and Donetsk region. They targeted official Ukrainian government installations and establishments, terrorised non-Orthodox Christians and Jews and generally conducted a campaign specifically designed to provoke a response from the Ukrainian government, which promptly occurred. 
Its undeniable that at times that this retaliation was at times brutal and possibly excessive - just as The Kremlin has predicted.

Have other countries meddled in Ukraine?
Possibly, even probably......still doesn't justify an invasion and all the subsequent death and destruction.

Zelensky may be a lot of things, but he's not an idiot.
He knows a military 'unconditional victory' is impossible.
But as the elected President of a country that has been invaded and is under a constant barrage of missile and drone attacks - often deliberately directed at civilian targets - whilst facing overwhelming odds and forces on several fronts - he can not publicly state that the concession of land is probable if any sort of peace is to be agreed.
Not only is it defeatist it is also unconstitutional according Ukrainian law and statutes.

'Ethnic Russians' always had 'equal rights' in Ukraine, please show me how they haven't.

Contrary to popular belief 'ethnic Russians' were never in the majority in the now occupied regions of Luhansk and Donetsk. If I remember correctly 57% and 58% of all citizens in those Oblasts were Ukrainian. The vast majority of 'ethnic Russians' who did live there were forcibly placed there during Stalin's great industrialisation programmes and were concentrated in the urban areas. The huge swathes of rural towns and villages were almost totally of Ukrainian ethnicity.
Of course all that has changed since the invasion and large numbers of Ukrainian people, including children who have been separated from their parents, have been forcibly relocated throughout Russia mainly in the remote and secluded regions - a practice that has been common throughout Russian history.

Its sad that so many Americans have become enamoured with Putin, a man who is the antithesis of everything the USA is supposed to represent.
A discussion for another time and place methinks.

Apologies to anyone who has had the patience to read the whole post, I do have a tendency to rabbit on at times.

[putnam6]

Its sad that so many Americans have become enamoured with Putin, a man who is the antithesis of everything the USA is supposed to represent.
A discussion for another time and place methinks.

Apologies to anyone who has had the patience to read the whole post, I do have a tendency to rabbit on at times.

I always read your posts FB, good to see you here

Americans aren't enamored with Putin FFS.

America was tired of paying for a war that had no winnable plan, as you have pointed out 

Not our monkey, not our circus..

America indeed has lots to do domestically 

Can't have it both ways, world on one hand, you say America is in decline on the other, whinging we need your help. 

Our leaders don't agree; our militaries don't agree; our intelligence services don't agree, but let's go to war with Russia over Ukraine.

Doesn't that mean NATO has failed its primary objective? 

Especially when there is so much animosity, easily 70% of the UK and Europe absolutely hate Trump. THAT DOESN'T WORK IN A WAR against the 3rd largest army. To be successful there has to be consensus and agreement and a fucking plan to win.

3 years in the UK and the EU offer none of that. 

America was paying pensions for the Ukrainian population... till April of 2024

Respectfully FTN


Here's America's efficient Army at work...please note, this was set up during Trump's first term and continued through Biden's. We can't run a simple Army charity without fleecing the American taxpayer....

[Image: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/...ay.com.ico]
USA Today
https://www.usatoday.com › story › news › nation › 2024 › 07 › 24 › janet-yamanaka-mello-texas-army-fraud-case-sentencing › 74535623007
Texas woman gets 15 years for stealing nearly $109M from Army to buy ...
Jul 24, 2024Mello was a civilian employee for the Army and worked as a child, youth, and school services financial program manager for the Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation program at Fort Sam Houston in ...

[Oldcarpy2]

"Russia ended up having to go in on a humanitarian mission, then got attacked by Ukrainians military and mercenary groups. "

Wow. Just, Wow!

[putnam6]

"Russia ended up having to go in on a humanitarian mission, then got attacked by Ukrainians military and mercenary groups. "

Wow. Just, Wow!

Quotes like this is why there will never be peace and the US is correct in letting the whole thing rot on the vine.

Right or wrong, this is the mountain Russia has built as its reason, but we have to make sure we phrase it correctly or reject it completely for Ukraine and the Russians just to get talks going. The whole world knows there is a nugget of truth to the story, so did Joe's handlers; otherwise, why did Joe say "not one inch of NATO soil"? Signaling to Putin not to invade, rumors persist that Russia has dirt on the Bidens, probably Hunter, thus Joe signaling 1234 bomb Ukraine but no more.    

Sure, it probably didn't warrant an invasion not to mention some wanted to Russians to root out the Nazi problem, while pretending Ukraine was pristine and corruption free democracy waiting to happen. 


 


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regimentThe Azov Brigade, which has played a key role in defending Ukraine’s territory against Russian forces, has rejected the allegations. Its fighters have turned out to be the most effective and popular military units on the war frontlines.

NBC News
https://www.nbcnews.com › think › opinion › ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946
Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's ... - NBC News
In another ominous development, Ukraine has in recent years erected a glut of statues honoring Ukrainian nationalists whose legacies are tainted by their indisputable record as Nazi proxies.

Reuters
https://www.reuters.com › article › opinion › commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TC
Commentary: Ukraine's neo-Nazi problem | Reuters
As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and ...

[guyfriday]

"Russia ended up having to go in on a humanitarian mission, then got attacked by Ukrainians military and mercenary groups. "

Wow. Just, Wow!

yeah yeah ok. Ukraine is all about love and peace and smelling unicorn farts. Which is why after agreeing to having a peace talk with Russia, they go off and blow up a Russian General. Zelensky and the politicians that tell him what to do don't want peace, they want ethnic cleansing of Russian citizens. 

Go on though and refuse to look at the facts of the situation. I guess "Feelz" mean more the truth. This war will not end as long as other nations are profiting off of it and Zelensky is allowed to take his cut of it. Get rid of Zelensky and replace him with some one else and watch how quickly this war ends. 


I would be interested in hearing how and why you think the war started since you seem think you know more than anyone else about it.

[Freeborn]

yeah yeah ok. Ukraine is all about love and peace and smelling unicorn farts. Which is why after agreeing to having a peace talk with Russia, they go off and blow up a Russian General. Zelensky and the politicians that tell him what to do don't want peace, they want ethnic cleansing of Russian citizens. 

Go on though and refuse to look at the facts of the situation. I guess "Feelz" mean more the truth. This war will not end as long as other nations are profiting off of it and Zelensky is allowed to take his cut of it. Get rid of Zelensky and replace him with some one else and watch how quickly this war ends. 


I would be interested in hearing how and why you think the war started since you seem think you know more than anyone else about it.

No-one is saying Ukraine and/or Zelensky are whiter than white, still doesn't justify the annexation of Crimea and the large scale invasion of Ukraine itself.
As for 'nationalists' within Ukrainian ranks; yes......pretty much the same as Russia.

Seems likely that either Ukraine activists or Russian sympathisers of Ukraine - yes, there are some - killed a Russian General.
Russian military are legitimate targets during wartime and quite different to the repeated targeting of civilian installations that Russia is doing......but sure, its Ukraine that is bad for defending itself after being invaded, not once but twice.

The only 'ethnic cleansing' taking place is the forcible relocation of thousands upon thousands of Ukrainian nationals trapped in the occupied zone who are being scattered throughout the vast Russian hinterlands, many of whom are children who are being separated from their parents.
That has been a common practice throughout Russian history when dealing with dissent, rebellion and the desire to occupy land that does not belong to them.

As for taking a cut; Putin has amassed a personal fortune of between $200 billion and $400 billion all on a salary of 100k a year......by taking a cut of every nefarious deal that has ever been conducted in Russia since he assumed power.
That doesn't excuse any monies Zelensky may have syphoned off for himself - something yet to be proven - just putting it in context.

Putin is playing Trump and it seems increasingly likely that sadly Trump is in fact a willing puppet.

[Freeborn]

Its good to be here mate and its good to see so many respected familiar faces.

No-one is denying the USA has its own problems that need addressing, pretty much the same as the UK and every other country on earth.
But appeasing aggression is only kicking the can down the road.
As long as we either ignore or appease Putin's acts of war and land grabs he will simply keep on pushing and pushing and pushing. The only thing he respects is brute force......and we have failed miserably to 'gain' his respect.

I don't want to see WWIII or any British soldiers fight and die in yet another foreign war....but sometimes you simply have to stand up and face bullies down.
That is a basic fact of life.
And make no mistake of it; Putin is nothing but a schoolyard bully.

I don't think the USA is in decline, it still has so much to offer the world......and we'd be in a much worse place than we are now without the role it has taken on the international stage.
I understand that it must be frustrating for American's who themselves are struggling.......but there is plenty enough money in the USA to put things right and still maintain its presence on the world stage. (Yes again, we have similar problems here.)
How to achieve that is probably another topic for another day.

Isolationism has never worked out well for the USA, or anywhere else for that matter.
Appeasement never works.

[putnam6]

Its good to be here mate and its good to see so many respected familiar faces.

No-one is denying the USA has its own problems that need addressing, pretty much the same as the UK and every other country on earth.
But appeasing aggression is only kicking the can down the road.
As long as we either ignore or appease Putin's acts of war and land grabs he will simply keep on pushing and pushing and pushing. The only thing he respects is brute force......and we have failed miserably to 'gain' his respect.

I don't want to see WWIII or any British soldiers fight and die in yet another foreign war....but sometimes you simply have to stand up and face bullies down.
That is a basic fact of life.
And make no mistake of it; Putin is nothing but a schoolyard bully.

I don't think the USA is in decline, it still has so much to offer the world......and we'd be in a much worse place than we are now without the role it has taken on the international stage.
I understand that it must be frustrating for American's who themselves are struggling.......but there is plenty enough money in the USA to put things right and still maintain its presence on the world stage. (Yes again, we have similar problems here.)
How to achieve that is probably another topic for another day.

Isolationism has never worked out well for the USA, or anywhere else for that matter.
Appeasement never works.

Apparently, sending copious amounts of military and financial aid for 3 years doesn't work either....

So let's continue to do that, till somebody kills the other's Archduke... then we will all be at war. 

Again, this war in its current configuration is unwinnable; Google how Ukraine wins back Donbas, Luhansk, and the Crimea

This pops up,


What's changed 4 months later?

much better to cut our losses and regroup for the next war over the horizon, than piss away men material munitions in the corrupt graft-ridden unwinnable Ukraine

and BTW, we heard the same stuff about Vietnam, if we lose there, China will take all of Asia... that analogy is closer to the truth than believing Putin will blitzkrieg NATO even if he were given Ukraine completely today. 

It's not happening. Russia has been exposed, battered, and bruised; they couldn't maintain supply lines to Kyiv for a week. They can't project an occupying force, but they can drill you with missiles, airstrikes, and drones

If UK, France, Germany and Poland had their shit together they should be able easily match them conventionally in a few years

[Maxmars]

The problem which complicates everything is the dispersion of populations groups who clearly weren't "caring" about political borders
and bullshit elite dick-measuring over notions of "power."

They moved... made families... friends... established themselves within communities...

.. and NOW someone decided No way and started harassing and bombing them.
.. this is the joyous result of that idea... expanded and carried out back and forth a la "old school"
.. where "revenge" and "ancient justice" matters enough for which to kill... even innocent strangers.

Everyone in the area knows the sting and reality of this...

Do they have a voice?
Can't they "decide?"

I know truth is scarce in the region (or maybe even about the region) but honestly...
What do our friends there really know about this stuff?
What are they being "told? (As opposed to what they are seeing.)"

Is everything someone's "propaganda"... as each 'side' will declare?

I tire of the "boogeyman" approach to the rhetoric... but that does seem
to be a common practice across the globe.