Trump is in talks with Russia to end the war

[sahgwa]

Yanukovych?

He did not seem very popular with Ukrainians. No wonder really, what with being a Russian stooge and all:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Viktor-Yanukovych

CIA?

No. Just a massively corrupt stooge trying to do Russias bidding against the will of Ukrainians who did not really want to go back under Russia's heel.

Hi carpy,

I didn't ask what people thought of Yanukovych, I was asking if they thought that the Maidan overthrowing of the elected government was legal and fair?

[sahgwa]

But that's not quite what happened was it.
Yanukovych was elected on a pro-EU ticket. 
A deal had been agreed with the EU and approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian assembly yet Yanukovych refused to sign it and instead signed an agreement with Russia much to the anger of the Ukrainian people who were overwhelmingly n favour of the deal with the EU. The resulting peaceful demonstrations against Yanukovych and his Russian deal were brutally suppressed on Yanukovych's direct orders.

Eventually he was removed from office and fled to Russia where he currently resides enjoying the thirty pieces of silver he received for betraying his nation and its people.

No talk or evidence of 'neo Nazi' interference or involvement. That has only appeared after Putin's invasion of Ukraine via that bastion of truth and honesty The Kremlin.

Did you see the Nazi evidence that i posted in the other thread?  Also did you see any of the BBC documentaries on Neo nazi movements in Ukraine in the 2010's? 
Just wondering. 
What is your opinion of the Azov batallion?  A lot of the info on Telegram comes from pro Hitler Ukrainian soldiers, and apparently there are no Nazis in Ukraine. 
Do you believe there is no Nazi involvement in Ukrainian government and these are just a few bad apples?

Thank you for explaining what happened with Yanukovich though, that was good information.

[Freeborn]

Did you see the Nazi evidence that i posted in the other thread?  Also did you see any of the BBC documentaries on Neo nazi movements in Ukraine in the 2010's? 
Just wondering. 
What is your opinion of the Azov batallion?  A lot of the info on Telegram comes from pro Hitler Ukrainian soldiers, and apparently there are no Nazis in Ukraine. 
Do you believe there is no Nazi involvement in Ukrainian government and these are just a few bad apples?

Thank you for explaining what happened with Yanukovich though, that was good information.

Whilst I haven't been to Ukraine or Russia I have been to quite a few eastern European countries and I have met and know more than a handful of Russian people. Quite likeable people and they like a drink and a laugh which are good attributes in my book.
But all of these countries are relatively racist and also have a far higher number of Nazi's in them when compared to western European countries.
And Russia is certainly no different.
It's quite ironic demonising Ukraine for its Nazi elements when Russia has at least just as many.
They are/were very prevalent in the Kremlin funded Russian Nationalist Militia's who provoked, agitated and terrorised throughout Luhansk and Donetsk prior to Putin's invasion. They subsequently initially fought side by side with regular Russian forces before integrating into them.
And of course lets not forget that several leaders of Wagner Group and a relatively high proportion of their numbers are/were quite openly Nazi sympathisers.

Personally, I have no time for Nazi's - they disgust me.
But if we are going to criticise and demonise one side for the Nazi elements within them then I think its only fair to point out that the other side is at least just as bad.

[RickyD]

But that's not quite what happened was it.
Yanukovych was elected on a pro-EU ticket. 
A deal had been agreed with the EU and approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian assembly yet Yanukovych refused to sign it and instead signed an agreement with Russia much to the anger of the Ukrainian people who were overwhelmingly n favour of the deal with the EU. The resulting peaceful demonstrations against Yanukovych and his Russian deal were brutally suppressed on Yanukovych's direct orders.

Eventually he was removed from office and fled to Russia where he currently resides enjoying the thirty pieces of silver he received for betraying his nation and its people.

No talk or evidence of 'neo Nazi' interference or involvement. That has only appeared after Putin's invasion of Ukraine via that bastion of truth and honesty The Kremlin.

Except only part of the country wanted to be in the EU. Most of the regions in the south east had no wish to join the EU. This is evidenced by how most of those regions tried to hold referendums to split with the part of the country which wanted the Yanukovich government out. Yanukovich left the capitol when the capitol was erupting in violence from the groups US and western countries supported. Everyone always wants to gloss over the west being involved in the revolution before it occured...then afterwards we hand picked who got to run and more than likely who would win. Meanwhile those same nationalists we backed went down to the south and eastern areas who wanted to split from the western parts of Ukraine and started intimidating and killing people in droves. Nothing about the government they have now is on the up and up any more than Yanukovich's government.

This is all info you have been shown for years now but you always ignore...and if backed into the corner you call it propaganda and wave it off.

[sahgwa]

Whilst I haven't been to Ukraine or Russia I have been to quite a few eastern European countries and I have met and know more than a handful of Russian people. Quite likeable people and they like a drink and a laugh which are good attributes in my book.
But all of these countries are relatively racist and also have a far higher number of Nazi's in them when compared to western European countries.
And Russia is certainly no different.
It's quite ironic demonising Ukraine for its Nazi elements when Russia has at least just as many.
They are/were very prevalent in the Kremlin funded Russian Nationalist Militia's who provoked, agitated and terrorised throughout Luhansk and Donetsk prior to Putin's invasion. They subsequently initially fought side by side with regular Russian forces before integrating into them.
And of course lets not forget that several leaders of Wagner Group and a relatively high proportion of their numbers are/were quite openly Nazi sympathisers.

Personally, I have no time for Nazi's - they disgust me.
But if we are going to criticise and demonise one side for the Nazi elements within them then I think its only fair to point out that the other side is at least just as bad.

I am in complete agreement.
In the other thread (NK soldiers) I point out the openly Nazi element in both Ukrainian military and Russian military (Wagner etc).  The reason I brought this all up is some posts ago you had mentioned it was a fabrication of Putin that there were Nazis in Ukraine and now all of a sudden you are agreeing with me and its not a fabrication at all... 

We have (or at least used to have online) evidence that this neo Nazi elements helped support the Maidan revolution ,as they are obviously very nationalistic;  snipers were involved, and people were burnt alive in government buildings, so it's not all beautiful peaceful Color revolution.

I will reiterate since the Commonwealth members on this board seem to be rabidly Anti Russia, that , to the contrary , I simply find it sad that Slavic brothers are fighting each other at all.   I am not backing Russia and I am not backing Ukraine either.  They are both corrupt and full of extremists.  The fault of this is equally on NATO expansion and the MIC as it is Putin's.  NATO had no reason to establish new bases in Georgia, and Poland, and then Ukraine, in the early 2000's, but by golly it did and it's just the MIC poking the bear for justification for more money and power in a never-ending conflict ala 1984.   NATO is obsolete and creates conflict to justify it's existence.  Russia felt threatened and moved to create more of a buffer zone in both Georgia and Ukraine.  And so it goes back and forth.

[quintessentone]

I will reiterate since the Commonwealth members on this board seem to be rabidly Anti Russia, that , to the contrary , I simply find it sad that Slavic brothers are fighting each other at all.  

I think the Commonwealth members on this board are against one country invading other countries mindset (no matter the country) and also find it sad that Slavic brothers are fighting each other at all, but were they ever brothers with one country wanting to eradicate the culture of another country? Not brothers.

[Oldcarpy2]

I am in complete agreement.
In the other thread (NK soldiers) I point out the openly Nazi element in both Ukrainian military and Russian military (Wagner etc).  The reason I brought this all up is some posts ago you had mentioned it was a fabrication of Putin that there were Nazis in Ukraine and now all of a sudden you are agreeing with me and its not a fabrication at all... 

We have (or at least used to have online) evidence that this neo Nazi elements helped support the Maidan revolution ,as they are obviously very nationalistic;  snipers were involved, and people were burnt alive in government buildings, so it's not all beautiful peaceful Color revolution.

I will reiterate since the Commonwealth members on this board seem to be rabidly Anti Russia, that , to the contrary , I simply find it sad that Slavic brothers are fighting each other at all.   I am not backing Russia and I am not backing Ukraine either.  They are both corrupt and full of extremists.  The fault of this is equally on NATO expansion and the MIC as it is Putin's.  NATO had no reason to establish new bases in Georgia, and Poland, and then Ukraine, in the early 2000's, but by golly it did and it's just the MIC poking the bear for justification for more money and power in a never-ending conflict ala 1984.   NATO is obsolete and creates conflict to justify it's existence.  Russia felt threatened and moved to create more of a buffer zone in both Georgia and Ukraine.  And so it goes back and forth.

Countries join NATO because they want to and have to apply to do so.

[sahgwa]

Countries join NATO because they want to and have to apply to do so.

Did I say Ukraine and Georgia joined NATO? I didn't, because they didn't.  NATO contractors and advisors go and preemptively set up bases and work with the local military partners.  My father was part of it and I visited many Eastern European countries that were not NATO members but were courted by that organisation and via private defence contractors.  You really don't understand how it works.  It is an expansion.
Russia does the same thing like in North Africa and the Middle East .  And it's exactly why this Ukraine war is a proxy war.

[quintessentone]

Did I say Ukraine and Georgia joined NATO? I didn't, because they didn't.  NATO contractors and advisors go and preemptively set up bases and work with the local military partners.  My father was part of it and I visited many Eastern European countries that were not NATO members but were courted by that organisation and via private defence contractors.  You really don't understand how it works.  It is an expansion.
Russia does the same thing like in North Africa and the Middle East .  And it's exactly why this Ukraine war is a proxy war.

Russia started this war as an attrition war, how long did Putin expect it to last? Oh yeah, 2 weeks? Surprise, now it's a proxy war and an attrition war, but the tables have turned (?)

[Oldcarpy2]

Did I say Ukraine and Georgia joined NATO? I didn't, because they didn't.  NATO contractors and advisors go and preemptively set up bases and work with the local military partners.  My father was part of it and I visited many Eastern European countries that were not NATO members but were courted by that organisation and via private defence contractors.  You really don't understand how it works.  It is an expansion.
Russia does the same thing like in North Africa and the Middle East .  And it's exactly why this Ukraine war is a proxy war.

I didn't say you did. I was talking about actual NATO members.

Fact is, no one forced membership on them. It's their choice.

Poland wanted to join for very good and obvious reasons. As now have two more countries, thanks to Putin's War.

Why shouldn't they?