Trump Executive Order okays incarceration of homeless

[guyfriday]

I like how this was about the Executive Order dealing with the Homeless, and now it's turned into some kind of Trump-bashing vomit pile. Nobody really cares about how you feel about Trump as a human beings, I think the question should be answered as to what can be done about this homeless situation and will this Executive Order be used or abused in order to help/hurt fellow Americans. 

It's not about the rights of illegals, Trumps person feelings, or any of those nonsense.

[Mantiss2021]

Apparently, they pay income taxes using your "IRS-issued ITINs", even without a Social Security number.

Where they contribute over $23 billion annually in federal taxes.

They also pay payroll taxes using fake or borrowed SSNs legally withheld by employers.

Which again amounts to paying billions into Social Security and Medicare that they'll never benefit from.

They also pay property taxes(directly or through rent) and state/local taxes like everybody else. 

And according to the "Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy" they contribute around $11.7 billion in state and local taxes per year.

So yes, they help fund the system, even when they are excluded from it.

And removing them from society won't just cost an arm and a leg, it's going to leave you short in rather a few other areas.

https://www.learningforjustice.org/magaz...mmigration
https://immigrationinitiative.harvard.ed...migration/
https://www.boundless.com/blog/myths-abo...n-the-u-s/
https://itep.org/

I am a retired state tax agent (California), and you are quite correct: undocumented workers are subject to, and pay the very same taxes, both federal and state, that regular citizens are required to pay.

What is more, because they are, by and large, more "at risk" for legal prosecution if/when they break any laws, including tax laws, they tend to be the most law-abiding, at least as far as the tax laws are concerned.

Yes, undocumented workers file, and pay their taxes using faked, or "stolen" social security numbers, which, when flagged by the IRS, are linked to an ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number). This ITIN is then used by both the IRS and State agencies to reference each particular taxpayer.

Neither the IRS, nor State revenue agencies particularly care whether a taxpayer is an actual citizen, a legal resident, or an undocumented person, as long as the individual, as a taxpayer, pays the appropriate tax, at the appropriate time, and adheres to the regulations set forth in the tax code.

Since many, if not most, undocumented taxpayers have limited English language skills, and since even the most basic tax return is often confusing to native English-speaking citizens, the majority of undocumented taxpayers have their tax returns prepared and filed by professionals, often through volunteer programs such as VITA.

When I retired from State service, I took a position as a paid tax preparer for one of the larger tax preparation services. Until the pandemic convinced me to fully and happily retire for real!

And yes, undocumented taxpayers DO contribute to the Social Security trust fund through deductions from reported wages (assuming they are not being paid "under the table" in cash...which is, at least technically, illegal for an employer to do).

But without a valid SSN,  no one can claim SS benefits upon retirement.

So, in essence, without the funds contributed by undocumented taxpayers over the past decades, Social Security would likely have gone belly up long before now!

[Vermilion]

Apparently, they pay income taxes using your "IRS-issued ITINs", even without a Social Security number.

Where they contribute over $23 billion annually in federal taxes.

They also pay payroll taxes using fake or borrowed SSNs legally withheld by employers.

Which again amounts to paying billions into Social Security and Medicare that they'll never benefit from.

They also pay property taxes(directly or through rent) and state/local taxes like everybody else. 

And according to the "Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy" they contribute around $11.7 billion in state and local taxes per year.

So yes, they help fund the system, even when they are excluded from it.

And removing them from society won't just cost an arm and a leg, it's going to leave you short in rather a few other areas.

https://www.learningforjustice.org/magaz...mmigration
https://immigrationinitiative.harvard.ed...migration/
https://www.boundless.com/blog/myths-abo...n-the-u-s/
https://itep.org/

We will assume those numbers from ITEP, a lefty think tank, for shits and giggles.
We will also be generous and say illegals pay $50 billion in taxes.
They happen to be costing the citizens $451 billion per year due to healthcare, law enforcement, education, and welfare benefits.
Congress did the math already…
https://www.congress.gov/event/118th-con...73647/text

Net benefit to Americans?

negative $401,000,000,000. Per year. 

We could amuse ourselves further and say that even it took $400 billion to remove them(an absurdly high unrealistic number), we would still be saving 1 billion dollars.
Now you’ll tell us “it’s not only about the money”. LoL

[ReturnofBroccoli]

Apparently, they pay income taxes using your "IRS-issued ITINs", even without a Social Security number.

Where they contribute over $23 billion annually in federal taxes.

They also pay payroll taxes using fake or borrowed SSNs legally withheld by employers.

Which again amounts to paying billions into Social Security and Medicare that they'll never benefit from.

They also pay property taxes(directly or through rent) and state/local taxes like everybody else. 

And according to the "Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy" they contribute around $11.7 billion in state and local taxes per year.

So yes, they help fund the system, even when they are excluded from it.

And removing them from society won't just cost an arm and a leg, it's going to leave you short in rather a few other areas.

https://www.learningforjustice.org/magaz...mmigration
https://immigrationinitiative.harvard.ed...migration/
https://www.boundless.com/blog/myths-abo...n-the-u-s/
https://itep.org/

Thx ^.^

[putnam6]

I've been homeless for a few months...slept at work for as long as I could, and then in my van "down by the river" till I could afford a room. 

It's a humbling fucking experience, even with a job, a vehicle, and enough money to eat and buy necessities. 

Incarceration just makes it worse, but if you sort them and have multiple ways to help those based on thier situation. 

Putting them up in hotels, as we've done for the immigrant population, would be a good start. Needs to be segregated from homeless families, substance abusers, and mentally unwell etc etc

Some will need real drug and alcohol rehab and mental health assistance immediately

Corporations need to participate, too, but you can just throw money at it; it needs to be a structured program that's safe and secure.

Somehow, we need to address the mental health aspect of this, as we have learned the answers aren't always in a pill bottle either.

Im not sure how it can be done, even if we could pay for it.

[andy06shake]

Thx ^.^

No problem.

I completely agree with coming up with solutions and meeting in the middle regarding issues like immigration, homelessness, and the food part. 

Because all the bipartisanship two-party system nonsense simply doesn't fly.

It achieves nothing, or very little.

And the world is a far more complex affair than the right vs left mentality some people assume to be the colour of the day.

[ReturnofBroccoli]

I like how this was about the Executive Order dealing with the Homeless, and now it's turned into some kind of Trump-bashing vomit pile. Nobody really cares about how you feel about Trump as a human beings, I think the question should be answered as to what can be done about this homeless situation and will this Executive Order be used or abused in order to help/hurt fellow Americans. 

It's not about the rights of illegals, Trumps person feelings, or any of those nonsense.

I think in some cases it will be slightly abused but I think it will probably end up doing more good than any other suggestion, I havent seen many alternatives. Maybe a pro and con list. Also, what kind of facility are they being committed to? I think the biggest problem i see is that if they think this will help drug addiction they are 1000% incorrect because with addiction, you have to choose to stop for your own self nothing else will work. Forcing their clear heads maybe help the ones that want to change for the better though. There's also protection against the elements and perhaps even medical treatment for those that are ill. I do not see many sane people living amongst the homeless, im sure probably a lot of them have PTSD. That alone can make it very difficult to do many things in society.

Pro: food, shelter, possible medical, maybe therapy, possible clarity, hell anythings possible really
cons: The only one I have heard is its against their will, which maybe even count for two or three cons.

It may boil down for whats better for the majority of the world? Maybe thats why things are voted on. Some decisions are hard, i dont think this decision was reached to cause people harm though and i think thats important too.

I think the people that are worried about it being corrupt should be the ones to facilitate the care? How about that? Then everyone would be satisfied, yes? Except maybe the homeless, but if they dont need it, the ones in charge of care could simply release them.

[andy06shake]

We will assume those numbers from ITEP, a lefty think tank, for shits and giggles.
We will also be generous and say illegals pay $50 billion in taxes.
They happen to be costing the citizens $451 billion per year due to healthcare, law enforcement, education, and welfare benefits.
Congress did the math already…
https://www.congress.gov/event/118th-con...73647/text

Net benefit to Americans?

negative $401,000,000,000. Per year. 

We could amuse ourselves further and say that even it took $400 billion to remove them(an absurdly high unrealistic number), we would still be saving 1 billion dollars.
Now you’ll tell us “it’s not only about the money”. LoL

Citing a cherry-picked cost from a congressional event summary like it's gospel, again, adorable! LoL

That $451 billion figure? Wildly inflated, and based on worst-case assumptions and double-counted expenses.

And i think you may find "Reputable" sources like Cato and ITEP estimate the actual net "fiscal impact of undocumented immigrants ranges from neutral to modestly positive."

Why?

Again, because they pay into systems they can't use, no food stamps, no Medicaid, no Social Security benefits.

As for the $400 billion deportation fantasy?

Besides being logistically and morally laughable, mass removal would wreck industries, raise prices, and tank your GDP.

But hey, if it fits a meme, who needs math, right?

If undocumented immigrants are such a burden, why does your economy collapse without them?

Look at what's happening to your farming, construction, and hospitality industries, which are cratering.

Your $451 billion stat is propaganda-level fiction, not policy-grade math.

Real data says they give more than they take.

But facts are pesky things, eh?

[Thoughtful3]

Not any more then when a Police Officer has to shoot a person in the line of duty. The issue here is what can be done about people living on the street, passing out on the sidewalks, and having serious mental health issues in public places in which the public can and have been victimized.

With the closure of a lot of federally funded mental health services back int he 90s, and this bazaar belief that every drug under the sun needs to be made available to the public there needs to be some kind of system put in place to take up that needed slack. Sadly, as much as the idea of taking people off the street in order to get the help that they should have had all along might be reprehensible on its face, the alternative of just continuing to allow these people to rot in the streets is much worse.

Having a child with serious mental health issues I have done everything possible to keep her from being homeless.
It is criminal that there are not enough beds for people like her when her mental condition declines.
When that happens strange things happen and people living near her suffer the consequences. They should not have to deal with fires and floods and constant police interactions. There has to be a more humane approach that helps everyone impacted.

She is terrified of being homeless. I'm very frustrated with the system. For example she has a food card but is not able to buy any prepared food, like a roasted chicken. She cannot cook, or believes she can't. 

Being very attractive she is frequently targeted by predators. I worry constantly about what will happen to her or if she is safe. I've had to deal with her being raped, jumping off buildings and am left with no support what so ever. She is not safe on her own and yet we care for illegals.

I know other parents in similar situations. There needs to be safe housing facilities for people suffering from mental afflictions with trained mental health supervisors who can interject when someone is declining.

Anyway just from my viewpoint.

[andy06shake]

I've been homeless for a few months...slept at work for as long as I could, and then in my van "down by the river" till I could afford a room. 

It's a humbling fucking experience, even with a job, a vehicle, and enough money to eat and buy necessities. 

Incarceration just makes it worse, but if you sort them and have multiple ways to help those based on thier situation. 

Putting them up in hotels, as we've done for the immigrant population, would be a good start. Needs to be segregated from homeless families, substance abusers, and mentally unwell etc etc

Some will need real drug and alcohol rehab and mental health assistance immediately

Corporations need to participate, too, but you can just throw money at it; it needs to be a structured program that's safe and secure.

Somehow, we need to address the mental health aspect of this, as we have learned the answers aren't always in a pill bottle either.

Im not sure how it can be done, even if we could pay for it.

"Some will need real drug and alcohol rehab and mental health assistance immediately"

This is completely true, and if they are unwilling to do so properly and fund the likes of drug rehabilitation programs accordingly, there is little point in doing so in the first place. 

They also require aftercare, accommodation, and jobs.

Same predicament over here, and let's face facts, the costs are astronomical.

And the commitment, half arsed at best.

Not an easy problem to solve or address in the slightest.