The never ending question, the Giza pyramids

[KKLoco]

Ah well Gobekli Tepe sure does exist. There are no foundations for the LIC, no pottery - pottery lasts a long time, the oldest known goes back to 29,000–25,000 BCE. Other early examples of pottery have also been found in Jōmon Japan (10,500 BC), the Russian Far East (14,000 BC), and Sub-Saharan Africa (9,400 BC), We have clear evidence of other cultures in the Nile Valley going back 40,000 years so if we can find those where is the LIC? Here is basic simplified information about prehistoric Egypt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Egypt. There are thousands of Naqada artifacts, hundreds of thousands of old Kingdom, hundreds/thousands for the earlier cultures...

Unless you admit there were multiple cyclical worldwide cataclysms, this conversation is pointless. 

You subscribe to the 'local flood' of the Leventine region. And therefore, the main steam point of view. The facts are, your ideology has been proven false again and again. I'm not sure what drives minds like yours. It is truly an anomaly. 

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that we in this day and age, are not the pinnacle of civilization?

Similarly, what does an ocean leave behind but sand and sodium. How ironic -- the Giza Plateau is filled with that......

[Hanslune]

Unless you admit there were multiple cyclical worldwide cataclysms, this conversation is pointless. 

You subscribe to the 'local flood' of the Leventine region. And therefore, the main steam point of view. The facts are, your ideology has been proven false again and again. I'm not sure what drives minds like yours. It is truly an anomaly. 

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that we in this day and age, are not the pinnacle of civilization?

Similarly, what does an ocean leave behind but sand and sodium. How ironic -- the Giza Plateau is filled with that......

You mean pretend they happened? In what time frame if you mean in the last 10,000 years none, other than the ending of the ice age. 
You seem to be making stuff up. This thread is about evidence for the LIC. I suspect all this dodging is to try to avoid the stark reality - you don't have any. One question where is all the LIC writing on the inside of the pyramids? 

I go with a thing called "Evidence", perhaps you've heard of it? Do you believe an earlier civilization built the pyramids? If so where is the evidence of that civilization having existed in the Nile Valley? Do you agree that there were indeed earlier cultures in the Nile Valley going back 40,000 years and we find perfectly normal archaeological evidence for those - have you ever looked up the Qadan culture that existed in that magic period the fringe always referred to the magical 10,000 BCE. https://rcin.org.pl/Content/133593/WA308...ebel_I.pdf

[SurferSoul]

So, what is the evidence that the fringe claims it has, that any of these objects or constructions predated 4,500BCE and what evidence do we have for the mysterious builders like we do for the other cultures in the Nile valley going back 40,000 years?"

So what evidence do you have for this LIC? So, you should TRY to make argument for why we don't find any evidence for this LIC. No cities, no habitations, no pottery, no burials etc. 

Ok I’ll try again, the evidence that the fringe are referring too, is the monuments and artefacts attributed to the AE. Not all of it of course, there is plenty of relatively crappy stuff that the AE did do, no doubt about it. But the general idea is that the AE found and adopted, even repaired and most likely venerated, the much more advanced monuments and artefacts. 

So it’s understandable that Archaeology would wrongly attribute to the AE what was in fact not their work. Where did this mysterious civ come from and where did they go? The answer is a complex one but the idea is their knowledge died off with their culture and civilisation around the period of the younger dryas. A catastrophe all but wiped them out. A catastrophe that is remembered around the globe as the great flood. Most likely the cause of the younger dryas.

Their writing and language is unknown to us, they chose not to leave any inscriptions in stone( perhaps the geometry and math incorporated was language enough?) the only thing that survives them is works in stone, in various states disrepair, hardly anything survived entirely in tact. Just like the wooden spear that was preserved for thousands of years, because of the special conditions that happened to preserve it. Only a relative few objects would have survived those times because of similar special conditions. 

Things are also made difficult because there was plenty of non advanced and quite primitive cultures around then too. Imagine Britain just before the British Empire period. The technology of the British and Europeans would have seemed like magic to the less advanced people of the earth then. So it was in those days. 

The only fragments of their knowledge survived in our early secret societies, knowledge that was remembered and passed on but hardly ever written down. Not in this days, as with the Druids. 

That’s all I have to say for now. If you reject all this outright then that’s because of my poor explanation no doubt. The theory as others have put it, much more knowledgeable in their various fields of expertise than me, is very compelling.

[Harte]

The monuments that we can't even build today , are the signs!  The perfectly cut stone 'boxes' in the 'Osirion' don't even fit through the doorway and are too heavy to lift especially with the limited space. Yet there they are. 

That's simply not the case. The sarcophagi certainly fit through the door and allow for at least 2 or 3 feet on each side in the corridor.
They were shipped there from the Nile via a canal that was built for the purpose. The canal is still there. There is a royal proclamation concerning building the place, and worshippers left little plaques around the sarcophagi with praises to this or that Apis bull, sometimes including details like the worshipper's and the bull's names, the date, things like that.
Consider that the Egyptians had been carving stone sarcophagi for at least 2,000 years before the Serapeum sarcophagi were carved. Are we to ignore a two-thousand year long stone sarcophagus industry in Egypt?
Lastly, I'd point out that some of the sarcophagi date to the Ptolemaic (Greco-Roman) period.

Given millennia things like plastic and glass and metal wear and rust and disintegrate. One day our civilisation will be a myth also, after volcanoes, earthquakes, floods, fires, tectonic movement etc grind it all away.

Maybe in a few hundred million years. That doesn't really gibe with the pyramids though does it.

Harte

[Harte]

Should have said that in the first place then. 
On the one hand we are told the Egyptians were a primitive civilisation that didn’t even have the wheel when the pyramids were built. That they only had Bronze tools, (which is to soft to work granite and other hard stone) That the pyramids were tombs(yet no pharaoh was ever found inside one) That the great Pyramid was built by Knufu, the evidence for this we are told is some crappy inscription hidden away somewhere on a block inside the pyramid. ( most likely a forgery) considering the Pharaohs liked to stamp  their Cartouches all over including over the top of old cartouche. It’s rather odd there is nothing solid about how it was built, in their texts or anything. Their single greatest achievement and there is no record or blueprint of it? 

Yes there is a workers settlement associated with the pyramids, but how do we know they weren’t conducting repairs? How do we know they didn’t inherit the monuments and adopted them as their own, like they did with some of the exquisite vases? Where is the solid evidence? 

These are the arguments I have heard, but for me personally it comes down to the shear ignorance of Archaeology’s and Egyptologist’s claiming a primitive almost backward people were capable of mind blowing sculptures in very hard, yet brittle stone. Engineering feats, and work of such precision( as with the boxes at the Serapeum) that the tolerance is in micrometers. 

I can understand that the study of Archaeology/Egyptology is so in depth and complex, that one wouldn’t know about Engineering principles as well, and therefore make assumptions based on that lack of knowledge. So I’m not knocking anyone. But at least listen to the Engineers and geologists when they point out such errors. 

Also before citing Stocks ridiculous Archeo-engineering experiments and his attempts at using bronze saws embedded with granite finings to cut granite? Explain the stirations left behind, which show the cutting tools were rotating at high speed.


Bottom line, either the AE had the appropriate knowledge, mechanical equipment(electricity not required) to do the work we find, or it wasn’t them that did it.

Here is a diagram of the hieroglyphs found inside sealed chambers that were blown open with black powder.
How many cartouches do you see? All are names of Khufu, but the glyphs are different in some because he had more than one name.
https://ahotcupofjoe.net/wp-content/uplo...24x510.png

Harte

[Byrd]

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that we in this day and age, are not the pinnacle of civilization?

Similarly, what does an ocean leave behind but sand and sodium. How ironic -- the Giza Plateau is filled with that......

The ocean doesn't leave behind sand and sodium.  Sand turns into sandstone; limestone comes from organic life (microorganisms and tiny organisms, along with shells (found on the Giza plateau and in almost all limestones) and fossils (there's a well-known ribcage of a Cretaceous dolphin on one of the flat blocks.)

Civilizations... you don't fall out of the trees and use mud and rocks to suddenly construct an "advanced civilization."  Civilizations come from earlier cultures, and you can see the sequence from "wow, these folks just basically wandered around clobbering rabbits over the head" to "that's some fancy computer stuff" everywhere on the planet.  There's a lot of variations depending on local resources (Mesopotamia had lots of access to iron, Egypt did not) and which resources and how they were obtained are critical clues.  In extracting desired minerals, waste is left behind that indicates how many there were and how products were made.

And even if we develop (sometime in the future) a perfectly recycled lifestyle, there will still be heaps of evidence of our technology (plastic in rocks, garbage, stonework, etc, etc... even the junkyards of cars would show something unusual several million years in the future (strange mix of chrome and rust and oxydized metals))

So, to prove an "ancient advanced civilization" you have to show how they got there... and to show that it is global, you have to show a lot of artifacts that are similar but have global reach (an example is "Hello Kitty" toys and Marvel Universe toys and computers and cars.)

If you try to find similar "incontrovertible evidence" for an "ancient super civilization" you get "pyramids" (built by completely different methods and in different shapes and architecture) built at times that are a thousand years apart... and not much else.

But if you know of such evidence, please do present it and we'll discuss it.

[Byrd]

So to be clear, you are looking for artifacts that can survive 10,000+ years? 
Because if you hold the derisively called LIC built the pyramids, then you also have to hold that they are at least 10,000 years old due to the water erosion on the Sphinx and signs that the Egyptians did not, like lack of hieroglyphics, architectural style differences etc. 
I don't think our computers would last that long in the dirt let alone whatever technology these people used. The monuments in stone are the only thing that would weather all the global changes.
After thousands of years the plastic would turn into black gooey mush. Like oil. And carbon.

A few corrections -- computer components will indeed last that long, particularly the resistors (which are coated with glass) and transistors, and possibly bits of the motherboard.  Glass easily lasts that long, as do many ceramics (and today's ceramics certainly will last longer than that.)  Some plastics that are already embedded in rock will also last that long.  Some paints will last that long (we have some rock art that's quite old) and some fabrics last thousands of years.

[quintessentone]

Herodotus' account of what he saw in regards to pyramid construction.

[Hanslune]

Ok I’ll try again, the evidence that the fringe are referring too, is the monuments and artefacts attributed to the AE. Not all of it of course, there is plenty of relatively crappy stuff that the AE did do, no doubt about it. But the general idea is that the AE found and adopted, even repaired and most likely venerated, the much more advanced monuments and artefacts. 

So it’s understandable that Archaeology would wrongly attribute to the AE what was in fact not their work. Where did this mysterious civ come from and where did they go? The answer is a complex one but the idea is their knowledge died off with their culture and civilisation around the period of the younger dryas. A catastrophe all but wiped them out. A catastrophe that is remembered around the globe as the great flood. Most likely the cause of the younger dryas.

Their writing and language is unknown to us, they chose not to leave any inscriptions in stone( perhaps the geometry and math incorporated was language enough?) the only thing that survives them is works in stone, in various states disrepair, hardly anything survived entirely in tact. Just like the wooden spear that was preserved for thousands of years, because of the special conditions that happened to preserve it. Only a relative few objects would have survived those times because of similar special conditions. 

Things are also made difficult because there was plenty of non advanced and quite primitive cultures around then too. Imagine Britain just before the British Empire period. The technology of the British and Europeans would have seemed like magic to the less advanced people of the earth then. So it was in those days. 

The only fragments of their knowledge survived in our early secret societies, knowledge that was remembered and passed on but hardly ever written down. Not in this days, as with the Druids. 

That’s all I have to say for now. If you reject all this outright then that’s because of my poor explanation no doubt. The theory as others have put it, much more knowledgeable in their various fields of expertise than me, is very compelling.

I don't reject it - I simply find no reason to accept it as a valid hypothesis - like a few years ago when Harte claimed he was the Emperor of the French- he got better - I'm sure you believe it but it comes with many attempts at grasping for straws. One thing we've learned from Archaeology is that Civilizations leave MASSIVE amounts of evidence. This LIC left nothing behind - in a location where archaeological preservation is much higher than normal for other soil types and weather, as noted we have no problem at all finding archaeological evidence of human cultures in the Nile Valley going back 40,000 years - so how can we find those and yet not find anything, not one single items of the LIC? Rejection of the Egyptians ability to do masonry and be organized goes back to 19th century racism. So, basically the claims for a LIC has no foundation in archaeology. Its all wishful thinking but you appear to reject that and go with a religious like belief that there must be LIC because others have claimed it...

[Hanslune]

A few corrections -- computer components will indeed last that long, particularly the resistors (which are coated with glass) and transistors, and possibly bits of the motherboard.  Glass easily lasts that long, as do many ceramics (and today's ceramics certainly will last longer than that.)  Some plastics that are already embedded in rock will also last that long.  Some paints will last that long (we have some rock art that's quite old) and some fabrics last thousands of years.

...and of course materials especially rock last for ever. The idea to non-archaeologists, that if you drive a stake into the ground, and that ground doesn't erode away that penetration of the soil will remain detectable for 100 of millions of years, is completely unbelievable.