president Maduro captured after US strikes

[andy06shake]

Theyve been manipulated since Chavez was president. Maduro is a dictator.

Left wing politics always needs a bigger government for their ever expanding set of rules and taxes. So no matter how much they say they are against concentrated power, their politics inherently come with it.

Can't argue Venezuela has been manipulated since Chavez, or that Maduro is widely considered a bandit.

That part isn't controversial or disputed.

But jumping from that to "left wing politics inherently requires concentrated power" ignores reality.

Plenty of left systems decentralise power.

Take unions, cooperatives, or local councils for example, the list goes on.

Concentrated power comes from weak institutions, corruption, and lack of accountability.

Not from taxes or social programs.

And plenty of right-wing systems have produced dictators.

Authoritarianism isn't owned by one political ideology.

[ElitePlebeian]

Problem being that Venezuela is somewhat polarised, heavily censored, and chaotic right now.

Selective clips from socialmedia prove little.

And showing street videos doesn't equal a country celebrating.

When things fall apart, or become unhinged, you always find some people cheering.

Others will be terrified.

But most of them will be just trying to survive.

Wondering where their next meal will come from or what's going to happen to their bank accounts.

Nah I know many many Venezuelans that fled with family still there, theyre all celebrating this. No exceptions. Sure not all Venezuelans went to the street to celebrate, but thats mainly cause theyre old or  still feer of somekind of backlash. But theyre all happy this scumbag is finally gone, except the quarter of Chavistas that still voted for him. Who are mostly bought with handouts and jobs. And they wouldnt be a quarter thus even less polarised if another quarter of the population hadnt fled the country.

[ElitePlebeian]

Can't argue Venezuela has been manipulated since Chavez, or that Maduro is widely considered a bandit.

That part isn't controversial or disputed.

But jumping from that to "left wing politics inherently requires concentrated power" ignores reality.

Plenty of left systems decentralise power.

Take unions, cooperatives, or local councils for example, the list goes on.

Concentrated power comes from weak institutions, corruption, and lack of accountability.

Not from taxes or social programs.

And plenty of right-wing systems have produced dictators.

Authoritarianism isn't owned by one political ideology.

You understand government is a powrstructure too right? The biggest there is. So while the left has some good ideas, which in the end can exist perfectly in a capitalistic country, again it inherently creates a big centralised power structure. 

And I bet most of the right wing dictators you would mention didnt run free market economies. Like Hitler for example who was in word and deed a National Socialist. Actually most famous ones are socialists, but sure that probably leaves a couple to prove youre right.

[andy06shake]

Nah I know many many Venezuelans that fled with family still there, theyre all celebrating this. No exceptions. Sure not all Venezuelans went to the street to celebrate, but thats mainly cause theyre old or  still feer of somekind of backlash. But theyre all happy this scumbag is finally gone, except the quarter of Chavistas that still voted for him. Who are mostly bought with handouts and jobs. And they wouldnt be a quarter thus even less polarised if another quarter of the population hadnt fled the country.

I'm afraid personal anecdotes don't equal truth most of the time.

I prefer facts as opposed to feelings, and we appear to be rather short on those.

Again, the people inside the country are facing uncertainty, violence, and food shortages.

No doubt about those facts.

Fear isn't just "old people being scared" it's a rational response to the power vacuum forming.

And writing off millions of people as "bought" is just silly, considering their predicament, which can change in a heartbeat. 

Yes, the polarisation will be worse because some people fled.

But that doesn't mean those left automatically agree with each other.

Or wish Trump and his board of directors to run the show.

[ElitePlebeian]

I'm afraid personal anecdotes don't equal truth most of the time.

I prefer facts as opposed to feelings, and we appear to be rather short on those.

Again, the people inside the country are facing uncertainty, violence, and food shortages.

No doubt about those facts.

Fear isn't just "old people being scared" it's a rational response to the power vacuum forming.

And writing off millions of people as "bought" is just silly, considering their predicament, which can change in a heartbeat. 

Yes, the polarisation will be worse because some people fled.

But that doesn't mean those left automatically agree with each other.

Or wish Trump and his board of directors to run the show.

Having an uncertain situation doesnt mean theyre not happy this scumbag is gone. And I dint just mention anecdotes, I support it with common sense and facts about the election results. You just refuse to do the math as usual.

And fact is most of what you mention has been the case for the last 2 decades. So sure youre right theyre facing uncertainty, but they know it cant get worse than what theyve seen under Maduro. Who at some point advised them on tv to catch rabbits and eat them. Another fact for you you probably refuse to process.

[andy06shake]

You understand government is a powrstructure too right? The biggest there is. So while the left has some good ideas, which in the end can exist perfectly in a capitalistic country, again it inherently creates a big centralised power structure. 

And I bet most of the right wing dictators you would mention didnt run free market economies. Like Hitler for example who was in word and deed a National Socialist. Actually most famous ones are socialists, but sure that probably leaves a couple to prove youre right.

Yes, the government is a power structure, to deny otherwise would be silly.

But it's not automatically the biggest or most centralised one around.

Religions, corporations, militaries, and oligarchs can concentrate power just as much, sometimes more.

Especially when they capture the state and run the show. 

Left ideas don't inherently require centralisation.

As to Hitler, calling Nazis "socialist" because of the name is misleading in the extreme.

They crushed unions, privatized industries, allied with big business, and murdered actual socialists by the millions.

[quintessentone]

I'm afraid personal anecdotes don't equal truth most of the time.

I prefer facts as opposed to feelings, and we appear to be rather short on those.

Again, the people inside the country are facing uncertainty, violence, and food shortages.

No doubt about those facts.

Fear isn't just "old people being scared" it's a rational response to the power vacuum forming.

And writing off millions of people as "bought" is just silly, considering their predicament, which can change in a heartbeat. 

Yes, the polarisation will be worse because some people fled.

But that doesn't mean those left automatically agree with each other.

Or wish Trump and his board of directors to run the show.

Trump will try to sell the people on how they all will become rich when he and his oil donor buddies rebuild and expand the oil industry with American taxpayer dollars there but even though they will take a large percentage of the Venezuelan people's oil money for themselves, some crumbs will fall to the people, maybe. But then what choice do they have?

As of yesterday (if may have risen) 60% of Americans disapprove of Trump's actions in Venezuela.

"No war for oil" "No blood for oil" protests going on.

[andy06shake]

Having an uncertain situation doesnt mean theyre not happy this scumbag is gone. And I dint just mention anecdotes, I support it with common sense and facts about the election results. You just refuse to do the math as usual.

And fact is most of what you mention has been the case for the last 2 decades. So sure youre right theyre facing uncertainty, but they know it cant get worse than what theyve seen under Maduro. Who at some point advised them on tv to catch rabbits and eat them. Another fact for you you probably refuse to process.

Your story was an anecdote, I'm afraid, even if well-intended.

And it "Can't get worse" is generally something people say right before things do get worse Elite.

History is full of nations proving exactly that fact. 

If the elections under Maduro were rigged, and i tend to agree, then using those numbers as clean "math" doesn't work either.

And yes, life has been awful for years.

But war, power vacuums, sanctions, and gang rule are different kinds of bad.

People can be glad Maduro is gone and still terrified of what comes next.

Both things can be true at the same time.

That's not refusing facts, it's acknowledging reality.

[ElitePlebeian]

Yes, the government is a power structure, to deny otherwise would be silly.

But it's not automatically the biggest or most centralised one around.

Religions, corporations, militaries, and oligarchs can concentrate power just as much, sometimes more.

Especially when they capture the state and run the show. 

Left ideas don't inherently require centralisation.

As to Hitler, calling Nazis "socialist" because of the name is misleading in the extreme.

They crushed unions, privatized industries, allied with big business, and murdered actual socialists by the millions.

All left people would say Hitler isnt a socialist, but he was. He just murdered the wrong kind of socialists, the globalist socialist ie communists. And from his personal notes it will become quite clear he was a socialist and he hated capitalists far more (one of his main reasons he killed the jews, because in his eyes they all were globalist capitalist soulless creatures). And socialism doesnt mean there cannot be big business, it means big business is ultimately controlled by the state.And his ecomomy was highly planned, the big business had one choice; follow orders or be taken over by his party members, a form of forced socialism.  (Funny because Chavez did exactly the same)  In fact business people were taking advise from books about what had happened in Russia on how to deal with that. 

Anyway not in the position to give you all sources and quotes right now. I have them at home. Also this is a discussion for another thread so will leave it at that.

[ElitePlebeian]

Your story was an anecdote, I'm afraid, even if well-intended.

And it "Can't get worse" is generally something people say right before things do get worse Elite.

History is full of nations proving exactly that fact. 

If the elections under Maduro were rigged, and i tend to agree, then using those numbers as clean "math" doesn't work either.

And yes, life has been awful for years.

But war, power vacuums, sanctions, and gang rule are different kinds of bad.

People can be glad Maduro is gone and still terrified of what comes next.

Both things can be true at the same time.

That's not refusing facts, it's acknowledging reality.

I was talking about the math of adding up that most people who didnt vote for Maduro or fled the country would be happy with Maduro finally removed. Common sense. And its indeed supported by what I heard from people I know and they know. I would call that better evidence than what youve brought to the table which are mostly speculations.

For the rest I can repeat my post again since you still say my post was purely anecdotal but I explained how its not.