Trump is in talks with Russia to end the war

[Oldcarpy2]

"My concern is this weird, "I hate Putin" ergo "let's kill Russians" idea. I find it as equally incomprehensible as "Ukraine has something we want... let's kill a bunch of Ukrainians." Seems counterintuitive and terribly simple-minded".

I agree.

But, buddying up to an actual de facto dictator and appeasement also seems, wrong. As does swallowing whole Russian propaganda and obvious lies.

As history tells us.

[sahgwa]

I'm not sure exactly where I'm supposed to hear what the Russian people want, OR, what the Ukrainian people want.

I know that in that regard, Presidents and diplomats make pronouncements, the media "picks a side" and rants ever onward from that perspective, the activist stage shows of virtual and virtuous...

But it's never unimportant to consider, let's say for arguments sake... say 3,000 or so three-generation families who constituted a regions' modest community... which happened to be located on a timely and tactically-convenient target area..., of course... to say their story has come now to an end is almost an understatement.

Many have a tendency to 'validate' the idea of oppressive force, violent or otherwise, to wrangle people into the 'correct' way of thinking (or living.)  In that validation, they objectify the death, the loss of limb, the brutal exposure to the activities and unbridled violence of war as another, different "thing"... as if it weren't exactly why wars work in the first place.

When you call for, or glorify war... THIS is what you call for... mutilation, destruction, "revenge strikes," casualties, collateral damage, no addressable 'freedoms,' no civil justice,' civil peace only under threat, children lost to trauma... all because "we are at war"... Honestly, I'd rather have no part of it.

It's an insidious trade-off... 

Many would be hard pressed to justify the entirety of what happens in war as a function of "social justice"... especially if they had to do it to the faces of the families of the victims... many of whom were not combatants, nor members of the "rah rah" communities used for show and effect.  (The mind-Pablum of politics is no remedy.) 

(Never forget, the media chooses what they report... as well as how.)

So where do we hear the "voices" of these people for whom we alternately hoot, holler, and grieve?

My concern is this weird, "I hate Putin" ergo "let's kill Russians" idea.  I find it as equally incomprehensible as "Ukraine has something we want... let's kill a bunch of Ukrainians."  Seems counterintuitive and terribly simple-minded.

If we hear anything from a lot of people in this thread, it's not an attempt at a third way outside perspective.
It's just TRUMP STOOPID - HE RUINS IT ALL
PUTIN EVIL - KILL RUSSIANS - HE WANTS USSR 2.0
UKRAINE GOOD - THEY ALL VICTIMS - NO NAZIS
Unfortunately.

Cue the insta-response: 'well you just dont bloody understand it, obviously! where did I say that?!'

[Oldcarpy2]

If we hear anything from a lot of people in this thread, it's not an attempt at a third way outside perspective.
It's just TRUMP STOOPID - HE RUINS IT ALL
PUTIN EVIL - KILL RUSSIANS - HE WANTS USSR 2.0
UKRAINE GOOD - THEY ALL VICTIMS - NO NAZIS
Unfortunately.

Cue the insta-response: 'well you just dont bloody understand it, obviously! where did I say that?!'

Bit of a straw man? No?

[putnam6]

I rather think that there were many reasons why Harris lost?

Did Americans vote for the US to suck up to Putin and become bestest buddies?

LOL Putin's Russia has been the same for 20 years if not longer we don't say squat when Russia-supported militias slaughter thousands in Africa


Now the US has to pay for an endless regional war in Ukraine because the UK and Europe are nervous. 

Respectfully that war is lost unless Starmer, Macron, Olaf, etc are ready to send their sons and daughters, brothers and sisters into the meat grinder of Eastern Ukraine.

Thats the truth now and it was the truth when this started. 

There is a lot more nuance here... America has to worry about Africa Asia etc not just next door.

It would have been nice to leave some of the UK's and Europe's defense to Europe but hey I guess you thought it was better to spend your pounds on other pursuits

 

Recalibration or Retreat? Russia's shifting Africa strategy With Wagner’s setbacks and the fallout from Ukraine, Moscow is rethinking its role in the Sahel

ANALYSIS | AFRICA

1. Regions Africa 
   
2. Russia
   

JOHN LECHNERSERGEY ELEDINOV
JAN 31, 2025After a whirlwind two-year expansion into the Sahel, 2024 saw a number of setbacks for Russian military operations.
The Russian private military company (PMC) Wagner Group’s routing in Tinzaouaten laid bare issues of command and control after a half-handover of operations from Yevgeny Prigozhin’s PMC to the Ministry of Defense (MoD). The fall of Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad in December then called into question the future of Russia’s eastern Mediterranean port in Tartus and its critical airbase at Khmeimim, all against a backdrop of a grinding third year of war in Ukraine.
These developments have led some analysts to believe Russia’s influence and ability to project power in the Sahel is waning, or that the Kremlin no longer considers the Sahel and other friendly states in Africa a priority. And indeed, there are members of Russia’s military, political, and expert communities pushing to scale back Moscow’s presence on the continent, or to use Africa as a bargaining chip in any potential negotiations between Russian President Vladimir Putin and U.S. President Donald Trump.
Based on conversations with Russian officers, experts, and members of the PMC community, a retreat from the Sahel, and Africa more generally, still appears unlikely. Rumor and speculation on future strategies are rife, but it is becoming clear that, after several years of expansion, Russian operations in Africa are recalibrating to better match capacity.
Claiming a leadership position within the Global South remains an important priority to the Kremlin, of which Africa constitutes an important, albeit discordant political bloc. The Sahel and Africa more broadly also offer a platform for strengthening Russia’s cooperation with China and Turkey

[sahgwa]

Is anyone surprised by recent events in these talks?

I've been saying on this board for months that the West had no noble interests in helping Ukraine become a peaceful democracy just out of the goodness of our hearts; Monsanto/Bayer are slurping up the agricultural land, and now Trump shows his hand that what NATO and the globalists were doing in an underhanded , faux-caring way via Biden-enko and sending all of our tax dollars over there, Trump is just doing overtly.  It was always about the resources in Ukraine whether minerals, land, or a market share. 

" Either 'Mad Vlad' grabs it or we do. "  Apparently that's how they are thinking of things in Washington.

Hence, I have no support for either side.
They are both greedy sheits looking for global leverage.  

If things were being done the right way, Trump would broker a deal to stop sending aid money but also garner a ceasefire without taking Ukrainian resources.

[Oldcarpy2]

"Respectfully that war is lost unless Starmer, Macron, Olaf, etc are ready to send their sons and daughters, brothers and sisters into the meat grinder of Eastern Ukraine.

Thats the truth now and it was the truth when this started. "

That is not, nor ever has been, the "truth".

I see that you deflect about Africa and won't answer my on topic points.

Again, did Americans vote to cosy up to and appease the de facto dictator Putin?

[Oldcarpy2]

"It would have been nice to leave some of the UK's and Europe's defense to Europe but hey I guess you thought it was better to spend your pounds on other pursuits".

Oh. Like our nuclear deterrent subs, and our contribution to building your F35s?

https://www.politicshome.com/members/art...my-defence



Storm Shadows? And the rest.

[Darkorange]

They are both greedy sheits looking for global leverage.  

You almost got it right, if I may.
The thing is...Protecting native russian speaking population from ukranian nazis is no greed...it is an honorable thing to do. Do not believe those stupid posters who hate russia no matter what. Remember, those in Europe who's in their 60-70th, have their grandfathers in nazi uniforms in family albums. They want to re act the finale of WW2 where they are the victors. And I understand...it is humiliating to them...to Von Der Linen, Mertz...many others.

What I afraid of is Trump playing along pushing Europe to war with Russia while USA is seemingly stepping aside. Just like before ww2, where usa corporations have armed hitler to enable germany to clash with Russia. Today this could be the case once more.

Really, Von Der Linen has no other choice right now but carry out the war plan while Trump will watch from across the ocean.
I hope this will not be the case but it reeks like same scenario. Only Russia is prepared this time. And still Trump will do the dirty job eliminating european elite by proxy...win win end game.



cheers)

[Oldcarpy2]

'Do not believe those stupid posters who hate russia no matter what. "

Not seeing any hate for Russia. Putin, perhaps.

I don't "hate" Russians, I feel sorry for them.

Plenty of hating on Zelensky though.

[FlyersFan]

Russia is the bad guy ... they invaded the country of Ukraine, destroying cities and mass murdering.

Ukraine government is the bad guy ... they have taken billions of dollars from the USA, 'lost' much of it, and paid off their corrupt government officials 'pensions' with it to keep their economy up and to keep their rich politicians rich.

American people are the 'mark' ... getting soaked for paying for a war on the other side of the planet.  Our heart strings are pulled because we know Russia is the bad guy because they are expansionist and invaded, so we pay money thinking it will stop Russia, but without a second thought on where much of it is really going ... a long corrupt Ukrainian government.

European people are the unwitting dupes ... rightly upset and nervous about Russias invasion but they expect America to bail them out.  They put the screws to America expecting us to pay for all this, and the Europeans don't care about the corruption of the Ukraine government.

European governments are part of the problem.  They see the danger of Russia, they try to stop the expansion, but they assist,  and pay, a corrupt Ukrainian government and they expect America to pick up a large portion of the bill.  

The American government is a mixed bag.   Biden was part of the problem ... weak in letting Russia invade, and up to his eyeballs in paying billions to the corrupt Ukraine government, the same government that funneled millions to the Biden crime family.  And then Trump came in who is all business and looks at the bottom line.   He's willing to let Russia keep the ground that it illegally stole from Ukraine in order to cut off America having to pay billions to the corrupt Ukraine government.

The Russian People are brainwashed nationalists.  Everything is 'rah rah Russia'.   Nothing but propaganda and revisionist history and facts.   Even their Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, has become nothing more than an arm of the Russian government.   This is seen in the posts of Russians who post here and at ATS.   Easily debunked pro-Russian lies and propaganda.   

Trump is right ... Ukraine is corrupt and Zelenskyy should be having elections.  No reason not to.
Trump is right ... the unchecked flow of money to the corrupt Ukraine government has to stop.
Trump is wrong ... he blamed Ukraine for the invasion when in fact it was Russia and Putin.

I have no idea if Trump is right to allow Russia to keep the land it stole in order to gain peace and to stop the squeezing of the American tax payer.   If agreements are reached that Russia can't expand anymore, then Trump may be right.   Ukraine and the free world may have to take the loss on this one.