How do you feel about religion?

[UltraBudgie]

Oh. Yeah. Sure -- not saying he was correct, egads, merely precise. Crowley's great for leading Fools to their cliffs.

Ever read Diary of A Drug Fiend? He spells it all out.

It's hilarious that he was well known as a poor choice for a mountain-climbing partner. I wouldn't put it past him to have deliberately cultivated that reputation.

About the wife-beating -- oh look! He wrote a poem! https://francais.agonia.net/index.php/po...ife-Beater


Good luck with the revenge option philisophy, and its tendency to retrocausally kindle the misfire. It takes a special kind of chops to make that work for ya. I believe you suspect as much.

[Oldcarpy2]

Mr Crowley by Mr Osbourne:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=mr+crowley...ribution=1

Lyrics.

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Good luck with the revenge option philisophy, and its tendency to retrocausally kindle the misfire. It takes a special kind of chops to make that work for ya. I believe you suspect as much.

Right?

It's probably the approach. The retribution becomes too one dimensional, and usually leads to some villain arch like Moby Dick, where obsession leaves them and their life behind. In the worst case scenario, in a prideful self-restrictive stasis. But you still get drown by the anchor most of the time.

The "with option" part is exercised sparingly. Let us call this the Carrie Underwood Clause?

Jesus and it's analog of passive spirit can take the wheel all the other times.

[Sirius]

Your son if fine now, as you said, and that is the most important thing, right?

Sorry, thanks. Was going through some stuff.


hmmm Mr Crowley...

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa (1486–1535)

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim (/əˈɡrɪpə/; German: [aˈgʀɪpa]; 14 September 1486 – 18 February 1535) was a German Renaissance polymath, physician, legal scholar, soldier, knight, theologian, and occult writer. Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy published in 1533 drew heavily upon Kabbalah, Hermeticism, and Neoplatonism. His book was widely influential among esotericists of the early modern period, and was condemned as heretical by the inquisitor of Cologne.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_C...us_Agrippa

There has been 100's of people since Heinrich and many orders that sprung up. Every body has had a "Great Work" and it doesn't just start in 1486.  Every now and then these get combined into a bibliography.  Romans are classic here and the mix-up of Mercury, Odin, Zeus, Hermes, Lugh, Wotan, Woden.

Edit: Sometimes it was just great uncle Pete the killed a bear and the Roman legionary couldn't understand "Gnarh thhouest unlce Pete thast" and just filled in the paper work and stamped a coin with Mercury.

[Sirius]

Absolute classic

WIlt thou not look upon this Labour of mine, to be a most bold and almost Herculean at∣tempt, to wage War against the Giant-like Opposition of all the Arts and Sciences? And thus to challenge the stoutest Hunters of Nature? 

https://archive.org/details/0005THEV/page/n1/mode/2up

[argentus]

I understand 'spirituality'.   "Religion" is, imo, a giant conglomerate of similar people who participate in a machine which influences, and moves money all around the globe.   There are several religions, and most of them are involved in lots and lots of money.   This seems to me to be the antithesis of the goals of the creators of the various religions.   I feel confident in expressing that if Jesus came today, He wouldn't rock a personal jet, boutique condo, or purchase Himself a personal politician.   

For the last two decades, I have worn a quarter-sized silver Jerusalem cross with a 2000+ year-old Greek Lepton  -- a Widow's Mite -- in the center.   My toxic sweat has made the silver black, which maches the black serpentine chain which holds it.   The coin is of very little monetary value.    It was struck in Judea somewhere between 75 and 37 BC.   It is very small and always green, because the coin is bronze, and my toxic sweat stains it also.  I wear it always inside my shirt, because it isn't for signaling my faith.   It is for me to enjoy and take comfort in.  

I am a scientist.  I have been of that mind since my earliest memories.   Always ask questions, always see the world with wonder, always learn and grow and research and question everything!!!  Read always, and be kind. For me, there is no conflict between spirituality and science; they use different terms and measurements to describe phenomena.  Robin Williams said, "Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always.".   I think I will continue to do that.   Always.

[Tecate]

Sirius,

I am sorry if I derailed your thread point, it was seriously not my intention.

I am very glad that your son is doing better. I have pretty strong opinions on religion but not on personal beliefs or spirituality. I misremember a fair bit of my studies, as I don’t have day to day discussions anymore with my usual counterpoint friends, and for that I am sorry that I may have come across as unsympathetic. I was reacting to the question of the thread.

One day I will relate a story that my wife has told me about reincarnation that has changed my thoughts about religion and our place here. (She has recently given me the ok to do so, but it was a while ago and she is trying to find her notes).

Until then, please forgive me if I was less than sympathetic to your queries.


Tecate


ps, Argentus, would you be willing to share a picture of your beautiful cross? I’m always interested in seeing their artistry.

[UltraBudgie]

Heinlein quotes about religion. What's your favorite?

• Secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy and censorship. When any government or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man who has been hoodwinked in this fashion; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, whose mind is free. No, not the rack nor the atomic bomb, not anything. You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.
  
  
• The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by Homo Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.
  
  
• Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense.
  
  
• It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  
  
• One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null word.
  
  
• Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
  
  
• Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.
  
  
• A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the lord in vain- then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?
  
  
• The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it.
  
  
• History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
  
  
• Of all the strange 'crimes' that human beings have legislated out of nothing, 'blasphemy' is the most amazing -- with 'obscenity' and 'indecent exposure' fighting it out for second and third place.
  
  
• God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills.
  
  
• I've never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith-it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
  
  
• One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.
  
  
• Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything.
  
  
• Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
  
  
• If you pray hard enough, water will run uphill. How hard? Why, hard enough to make water run uphill, of course!
  
  
• The faith in which I was brought up assured me that I was better than other people; I was saved, they were damned.... Our hymns were loaded with arrogance - self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us, what hell everybody else would catch come Judgment Day.
  
  
• The nice thing about citing god as an authority is that you can prove anything you set out to prove.
  
  
• Don't appeal to mercy to God the Father up in the sky, little man, because he's not at home and never was at home, and couldn't care less. What you do with yourself, whether you are happy or unhappy- live or die- is strictly your business and the universe doesn't care. In fact you may be the universe and the only cause of all your troubles. But, at best, the most you can hope for is comradeship with comrades no more divine (or just as divine) as you are. So quit sniveling and face up to it- 'Thou art God!'
  
  
• The Ten Commandments are for lame brains. The first five are solely for the benefit of the priests and the powers that be; the second five are half truths, neither complete nor adequate.
  
  
• There is an old, old story about a theologian who was asked to reconcile the Doctrine of Divine Mercy with the doctrine of infant damnation. 'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores.
  
  
• But I contend that the disgusting behavior of many of their alleged 'holy men' relieves us of any intellectual obligation to take the stuff seriously. No amount of sanctimonious rationalization can make such behavior anything but pathological.
  
  
• God split himself into a myriad parts that he might have friends. This may not be true, but it sounds good, and is no sillier than any other theology.
  
  
• Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly.
  
  
• Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
  
  
• A religion is a source of happiness and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong--and you are strong. The great trouble with religion--any religion--is that the religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge these propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak uncertainty of reason--but one cannot have both.
  

[Sirius]

Sirius,

I am sorry if I derailed your thread point, it was seriously not my intention.

No worries mate, I gave the thread the wrong title, language and all that, seems to be going well regardless.

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Heinlein quotes about religion. What's your favorite?

I don't know, if you have any extended dialog with atheists you get him, Hitchens, Sagan, Dawkins, and Adams ad infinitum.

How many different ways can you kill religious apologetics really? I think it must get exhausting to devote so much attention to calling out religious ideals and declaring why it is you don't believe in the mass delusion they do.

If you don't like God, stop using theories that infer infinities to disprove it exists in your arguments.

The accusation of religion works until the secular humanists prove you can shame, force-acclimate, and oppress people without religion.

So I guess my favorite would be:

The nice thing about citing god as an authority is that you can prove anything you set out to prove.