REDRAWING THE MAP Ukraine could be carved up like Germany

[xuenchen]

U.S. special envoy Keith Kellogg has come up with a wild LuLu about Ukraine getting chopped up like Germany and Berlin after WW2! 

My only question is where will The Brandenburgskyy Gate be? 

REDRAWING THE MAP Ukraine could be carved up like Germany after World War 2 after peace deal with Russia, says Trump’s envoy Kellogg

 
This would mean acknowledging the 20 per cent of Ukraine's eastern land that Russia has already occupied as under Putin's control.
 
Between the two sides would be Ukrainian forces, operating behind a roughly 18-mile wide demilitarised zone (DMZ).
 
Kellogg, 80, said the Anglo-French-led force west of the Dnipro would "not be provocative at all" to Vladimir Putin's regime.
 
The general, who has been a leading figure in US efforts to end Russia's war, added that Ukraine was big enough to accommodate several armies to enforce a ceasefire.
 

[Anna]

Russia already occupies that 20% of Ukrainian land. Ukrainians can't take it back so it will belong to Russia with or without Trump's approval. Putin doesn't take Trump's hissy fits seriously. He didn't agree to the proposed ceasefire. Neither is he going to accept the European military forces in Ukraine. It's been already said.

So what is Trump going to do? Oh we heard it. Impose sanctions. Only the sanctions have already been placed.

Trump has a soft spot for Putin. He never misses an opportunity to suck up to him. Putin knows that and he will exploit that to the end.

[putnam6]

Russia already occupies that 20% of Ukrainian land. Ukrainians can't take it back so it will belong to Russia with or without Trump's approval. Putin doesn't take Trump's hissy fits seriously. He didn't agree to the proposed ceasefire. Neither is he going to accept the European military forces in Ukraine. It's been already said.

So what is Trump going to do? Oh we heard it. Impose sanctions. Only the sanctions have already been placed.

Trump has a soft spot for Putin. He never misses an opportunity to suck up to him. Putin knows that and he will exploit that to the end.

FWIW it's supposed to be deeper sanctions targeting Russia's oil exports IIRC there would be some sting there but

OK, so respectfully how should Trump proceed? 

Generally or specifically it's obvious this can not proceed successfully in any other way for Ukraine, Russia is too large in the end the 7 to 1 advantage wins just as it was this obvious in the months preceding their SMO over 3 years ago, but they were sold on getting billions from the US in military and financial aid, it was too much money to turn down and it gave Ukraine a chance. I don't blame Ukraine I blame the US for pushing fighting instead of trying negotiations first. That said... 

To have negotiations you need a starting point a baseline, thats a lot of territory to give up, and in the end, it might not be that much.
I could easily foreign troops being there temporarily for 12-18 months making sure the peace holds and then having a gradual withdrawal

[Kwaka]

Looks like a reasonable start with how the situation is, NATO has green, Russia has red, the yellow in the middle is still entangled in the conflict going on.

For a ceasefire to work, it does require an acceptance by both sides of where the new lines will be.

[sahgwa]

Having confirmation of Ukraine losing Crimea totally would be a huge huge blow, after the 2014 Russian annexation. 
I am not sure if the Western Corporate owners errr allies will like to allow that.

[putnam6]

Having confirmation of Ukraine losing Crimea totally would be a huge huge blow, after the 2014 Russian annexation. 
I am not sure if the Western Corporate owners errr allies will like to allow that.

Sounds like Zelensky is talking out of both sides of his mouth? Especially if he is including the disputed territories, they aren't getting Crimea back



Sprinter Observer

@SprinterObserve
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4s

Ukraine will not withdraw troops from its territories and will not accept Russian ultimatums , said Vladimir Zelensky. Kiev is considering the possibility of a re-meeting of all teams from the US, Ukraine, Russia and European countries, Zelensky said. According to him, such negotiations could take place in Turkey, the Vatican or Switzerland. "I heard that Trump reported on his conversation with Putin, and we are waiting to study the proposal that Russia will present," Zelensky stressed. Zelensky confirmed that Ukraine could sign a memorandum with Russia that would lead to an agreement to end the conflict.

[sahgwa]

Someone needs to light a fire under that little Zelensky's ass and quick.
Putin doesn't take prisoners and there have been a lot of atrocities during this war and I am tired of it. 
Like physically sick of it.
Literally no one gained from this.
You can't even say Putin did.

The whole thing looks like a cornered cat manoeuvre from the Russian side.
And what do cats do when they are cornered? 
Spit and strike.

That said - we are here in this stupid cat in a corner stalemate for 3 years now. Let's just stop? 
Broken record. 

And no, Putin doesn't want to 'reboot' the Soviet Union. 
Show me evidence. 

And here we are, Ukraine totally lost Crimea in the months since. 
They are losing. Slowly, but losing.

[argentus]

My humble opinion, Trump's deal for the Ukraine's rare Earth minerals -- cerium, yttrium, neodymium and lanthanum, are what Putin wants, not to mention all the oil and one of the largest natural gas pots in the world.  It was both a brilliant and bold move that Trump negotiated for those things.   Also extremely dangerous.   One one hand, at least the U.S. gets something for its money, as all the collective global donations to the Ukraine fall well short of the estimated 62 billion the U.S. has given.   Also, if there are American citizens on the ground overseeing and helping with the mining, then that makes it more dicey for Putin to blow things up.  

HOWEVER.  This might be the biggest powerplay in history.   Putin may or may not have cancer.   He may or may not be in a fuckit mode.   I think it is brilliant strategy, but also quite possibly globally cataclysmic.   Paying and paying with no gain wasn't helping the citizens of the U.S., whose pocketbooks have already been dumped on in previous administrations.  

It is an amazing and frightening time to be alive.

[sahgwa]

If everyone in the USA grew balls and stopped working for a month, so as to stop federal taxes, and just did what 'they' tell you (sometimes) and lived off their pantry and camped or something. I would love to see the MIC crumble and peace come. That means no shopping anywhere and no getting gas. A whole month boycott of absolutely everything. 

Or would that make a difference ?

[Oldcarpy2]

Someone needs to light a fire under that little Zelensky's ass and quick.
Putin doesn't take prisoners and there have been a lot of atrocities during this war and I am tired of it. 
Like physically sick of it.
Literally no one gained from this.
You can't even say Putin did.

The whole thing looks like a cornered cat manoeuvre from the Russian side.
And what do cats do when they are cornered? 
Spit and strike.

That said - we are here in this stupid cat in a corner stalemate for 3 years now. Let's just stop? 
Broken record. 

And no, Putin doesn't want to 'reboot' the Soviet Union. 
Show me evidence. 

And here we are, Ukraine totally lost Crimea in the months since. 
They are losing. Slowly, but losing."

Crimea is gone.

As for lighting a fire under someone's ass, that should be under Putin's.  Trump sanctions.  But he won't, possibly because he is compromised.

Atrocities?

Putin is targeting civilians on a daily basis.

That's War crimes.

Poor Russia, though.

Naughty old Ukrainian for resisting.  How dare they....