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Lawsuit brought against FTC, No "easy" cancellation requirement
#1
I'm sure some of us have hit that wall..., trying to cancel recurring charges of 'subscription services' or 'licensing' that keep recurring even after the desire to cancel is duly expressed.

I offer as an example my own struggles trying to cancel several such contracts for "anti-virus," gaming subscriptions, etc.

You "logon" to the service, or navigate to customer service and lo and behold... there is no 'button' or app that will simply register the cancellation.  The systems force you to bounce around the board, click after click, and even when you thin you're done, you find the charge is still drawing your money over and over, and the remedy seems 'out of reach' as you are forced to repeat and re-accomplish the same steps...a gain and again...

The problem itself is bad enough to have elicited exposure simply due to the number of people who are being fleeced of their money... to the collective tune of billions of dollars per year... and most (if not all) of those 'charges' are ultimately "irreversible."

Companies such as Blizzard, or Netflix, actually profit significantly from the simple overcomplication of a process which is clearly designed to "make it harder," or even "impossible" to simply cancel a recurring charge.  And it became even more abusive as many of the beneficiaries of the charges separated themselves within the process through "third-party'' companies contracted by the providers to "handle subscription services" adding yet another entity through which users we obliged to deal with... just to say "goodbye."  So much so, that the charges would recur, and the company could just say... "Oh. We don't handle that... you have to contact xxx because we are not the one's charging you"  And the money siphoning game continues... while the frustrated user bleeds money into someone coffers for a service or subscription they no longer use or want.

Eventually the FTC and ancillary authorities could no longer "ignore" the complaints or hide from their legislated observation to act, lobbying not withstanding.

Sourced from ArsTechnica: Cable companies ask 5th Circuit to block FTC’s click-to-cancel rule

Apparently, reason prevailed and they had to officially act, 

"... the Federal Trade Commission approved a rule that "requires sellers to provide consumers with simple cancellation mechanisms to immediately halt all recurring charges."

One week later, a Cable lobby group - NCTA-The Internet & Television Association and the Interactive Advertising Bureau trade group, sued the FTC in the Texas US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit.

The lawsuits say the FTC order was "arbitrary, capricious, and an abuse of discretion within the meaning of the Administrative Procedure Act," that it was unsupported by substantial evidence, and exceeds the FTC's statutory authority in violation of the US Constitution.

So the trade groups members are playing a "delay" strategy... based upon the wording we can see the stereotypical claims of "challenging statutory authority" and "questioning the Constitutional grounds" adding the egregious characterization of "capriciousness;" as if it were being done out of malicious glee, or spite.... poor babies, they won't get to keep sucking on the teat of profit with impunity.

For example;  NCTA CEO Michael Powell claimed during a January 2024 hearing that "a consumer may easily misunderstand the consequences of canceling and it may be imperative that they learn about better options" and that the rule's disclosure and consent requirements raise "First Amendment issues."

The Interactive Advertising Bureau argued at the same hearing that the rule would "restrict innovation without any corresponding benefit" and "constrain companies from being able to adapt their offerings to the needs of their customers."


Imagine that, legally requiring the provider to accept contract cancellation is somehow "unfair" and a 'rights' violation.  

There is a lot here to expose, and in my opinion, it all hinges on the "benefits" to the company... and zero obligation to accept 'user cancellation' as an honorable contract obligation.
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#2
How about making it something the credit card companies are responsible for? For example, make the credit card company require explicit permission from you for a merchant to begin a recurring charge to your account. Then, if you subsequently decide to cancel the service, just contact your credit card company and revoke that permission, which will have them notify the merchant. That way you can be really sure the charges will stop, and the merchant has no room to dawdle. You'll simply see the "final bill" amount on your next statement, and that will be that.

The idea that the exact same process is used to make a one-time charge on your account, and to authorize an open-ended monthly or yearly subscription, and you might not be sure what you're getting, is absurd.
I followed the Science, and all I found was the Money.
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#3
(10-25-2024, 07:11 AM)UltraBudgie Wrote: How about making it something the credit card companies are responsible for? For example, make the credit card company require explicit permission from you for a merchant to begin a recurring charge to your account. Then, if you subsequently decide to cancel the service, just contact your credit card company and revoke that permission, which will have them notify the merchant. That way you can be really sure the charges will stop, and the merchant has no room to dawdle. You'll simply see the "final bill" amount on your next statement, and that will be that.

The idea that the exact same process is used to make a one-time charge on your account, and to authorize an open-ended monthly or yearly subscription, and you might not be sure what you're getting, is absurd.

You obviously do not work in governance... 

- Eliminate the proliferation of "middlemen" in commerce? Anathema!
- Empower the consumer? Insanity!
- Protect the user from the abuse of "technicalities?"  Never!

Seriously though, I like the notion... but I wonder what form the complaints from the credit card companies will take?  (Considering that they make money from every transaction.)

We live in a world where all "innovative automation" serves the corporation or it ceases to exist without a "charge."
I suspect this will end with "Cancellation" becoming characterized as an additional "service" for which there will be a 'fee.'
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#4
Hulu is notorious for this.
While you "may" get a ding on your credit record going thru your bank & stopping payment is easy. I get that many people don't have the time to chase everything down. Despite Hulu's acknowledgement of cancellation in April (not this yr) they billed me for 6 more months. It was simple to show the Bank the cancellation email from Hulu as even they went WTF???
Didn't get the credit ding, but I know not everyone gets that cancellation email. 
Pretty sure if you can show emails where you requested service termination the Bank would be fine with it. 

Have been looking at services that offer cancellation services for internet subscriptions cause altho  the fee annoys me, saving time & headaches is probably worth it.
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#5
(10-25-2024, 01:22 PM)jaded Wrote: Hulu is notorious for this.
While you "may" get a ding on your credit record going thru your bank & stopping payment is easy. I get that many people don't have the time to chase everything down. Despite Hulu's acknowledgement of cancellation in April (not this yr) they billed me for 6 more months. It was simple to show the Bank the cancellation email from Hulu as even they went WTF???
Didn't get the credit ding, but I know not everyone gets that cancellation email. 
Pretty sure if you can show emails where you requested service termination the Bank would be fine with it. 

Have been looking at services that offer cancellation services for internet subscriptions cause altho  the fee annoys me, saving time & headaches is probably worth it.

We here are a relatively small group... but I bet none of us can say "I've never had difficulty cancelling an on-line service agreement"... 

A few dollars here, a few dollars there... it adds up quickly... and it is all money that the providers enjoy holding onto.... obviously, since they keep doing it.

I don't doubt the lobby will "get their way." They've got deep pockets.

But it sure seems like we should at least be able to talk about it... even if the FCC and the FTC and the rest of the appointees are already sold and payed for.  They still have to hear it from us. 

I can say I have run across the "never-ending" money suck time and again, from everything between World of Warcraft subscriptions to Anti-Spyware 'services,' to streaming 'services'... and so much more.  They've cost yours truly thousands over time... and returned nothing... eliciting visions of elated people rubbing their nipples in gleeful schadenfreude as I complained into the phone...

If you were the foot-dragger when you paid for the services they would have no problem cutting you off quickly.
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#6
(10-25-2024, 06:48 AM)Maxmars Wrote: I'm sure some of us have hit that wall..., trying to cancel recurring charges of 'subscription services' or 'licensing' that keep recurring even after the desire to cancel is duly expressed.

I offer as an example my own struggles trying to cancel several such contracts for "anti-virus," gaming subscriptions, etc.

Six months ago I started getting a Xbox charge of $89 every month. I do not have a Xbox or any Microsoft product. I called Microsoft and they could only find the charge with a login ID.

I don’t log in because I don’t have any of your products I told them. The guy said he can’t help me.

I called capital one credit card and somehow they have $89 reacuring charge every month listed! They sent me a new card and added the $89 Microsoft fee in my billing cycle on the 26th of every month.

I have called 5 times and they cancel my card and still keep the $89 fee in my capital one account. It’s been six months.

No one cares or will help me!
Be kind to everyone!
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#7
(10-25-2024, 06:20 PM)Quantum12 Wrote: Six months ago I started getting a Xbox charge of $89 every month. I do not have a Xbox or any Microsoft product. I called Microsoft and they could only find the charge with a login ID.

I don’t log in because I don’t have any of your products I told them. The guy said he can’t help me.

I called capital one credit card and somehow they have $89 reacuring charge every month listed! They sent me a new card and added the $89 Microsoft fee in my billing cycle on the 26th of every month.

I have called 5 times and they cancel my card and still keep the $89 fee in my capital one account. It’s been six months.

No one cares or will help me!

This is how they exploit the system; and you are not alone.

Yet somehow, the industry lobby STILL carries on in the courts while they continue the practices that no one can stop. 

If you ask me, this is a text book example of the protection we should expect from the government, and how they always manage to not fulfill that expectation.
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#8
(10-25-2024, 08:11 PM)Maxmars Wrote: This is how they exploit the system; and you are not alone.

Ye somehow, the industry lobby STILL carries on in the courts while they continue the practices that no one can stop. 

If you ask me, this is a text book example of the protection we should expect from the government, and how they always manage to not fulfill that expectation.

I totally agree! We need protection. This happened to me with a gym membership. I moved and told them I was moving. I fulfilled my year contract and they still bill me every month.

With gym memberships you have to give them your checking account number and routing number! Never again! They keep telling it was stopped but it is still coming out of my checking account every month! ?
Be kind to everyone!
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