Heaven

[chr0naut]

Thanks for replying although you have essentially said nothing. It would appear that you don't know anything about heaven at all. Those 'philosophies and prophecies' don't seem to have led you anywhere yet you say they can guide me?

It's all just silly self aggrandisation we both know that, a pity really, had you answered differently we might have had a conversation. 

I didn't ask for physical proof, why would I expect that? You made some assertions about 'heaven' and I ask how you came to that conclusion. It wasn't a trick question. You answer memories of memories in dreams.

To be honest I expected you would have nothing anyway, so it says something about me that I would even engage you. Perhaps in some way I feel a need to feel superior, I don't know. I did want to chat a little about heaven but there are no dancers here.

Heaven - Wikipedia - Nothing that you learn at school or in science is useful in understanding the things of heaven. You have to look to mystics, philosophers, scriptures, reasoners and those who have had direct revelation.

90% of what you will read online is not credible. And LLM summaries of that cloud of nonsense is even more deceptive.

You have to read that ancient stuff, then reason from the foundations, and make decisions to throw out what doesn't fit.

I take the Bible to be the best reference, but not modern interpretations of what the majority 'think' the Bible says. You have to stick to the text and be very wary of adding to, or subtracting from, the text. The world is full of those that sermonize on tiny snippets, and never read the whole text - in context. They don't even search to disprove their interpretations, or cross-check to find if their interpretation is at odds with other passages. Worse, they build fake edifices on their misinterpretation and if someone calls them out, they pronounce the genuine seekers and learners as heretical!

There are so many instances, and they are very-very common.

How many times have you been preached at of 'the three Eastern kings' at the nativity of Jesus? Yet in the texts there is no mention of their number, nor were they kings, they were from a particular tribal group from the North (and that also currebtly survives in India), and they didn't turn up to see a newborn in an animal feeding trough (they went to a house, and Jesus was about two years old at the time).

There are hundreds of similar misinterpretations preached as if the direct text weren't right, there in everyone's plain view!

That is why it is important to study the Bible and not just passively let someone's words just flow over you, gullibly accepting their 'preaching' expertise.

As to heaven,
- No-one is given in one-to-one marriage there. It isn't that neccessary.
- There is no more death.
- All pain is gone.
- Tears are wiped away (there is loving concern for everyone).
- There we are in the direct prescence of the creator, without being un-made.
- We all are embodied there, but not with these blind, deaf, dumb shells. We are different. So much better, so capable, everything is easier, eveything is fun. If we had a purpose on Earth and we achieve it, it feels good, like we were made for it, but there, that was really what we were made for.

As for me, I am standing in such a large crowd of souls that they look like a surging ocean of pure colourless glass.

I am singing at the top of my lungs, with no pitch too high or low for me to sing. There is no limit of lung capacity. I can do this, without break, for ages.

My arms are lifted in abandon, weightless, or perhaps I am a star with the arc of a prominence raised in praise to the source of all power and light.

I don't even really feel the need to comprehend what I am. I know and am fully known by all around me. We are individuals but joined in new, deep, ways.

And when we are here, we are other places, too. And we all still have stuff to do. Important stuff that we were made for. I am in superposition all over the place.

Imagine if you could turn on pleasure pathways in your body and brain, and your loved ones, and there were no negative consequence. So, you do.

And you have to allow everyone in to touch the most fragile and dark parts of your psyche, as you do only with loved ones. Soon, they bring in their loved ones. Who bring in more. But those fierce individualists who fear to be touched, isolate and can't participate. They create their own isolation and hell from their fear and shame.

And all the rest of your minds are bumped up in performance and not lost in the feelings. A clarity more real sharp and clear than this dim, cloudy, indistinct matter world.

I know that all this is 'still to happen' in our temporal frame, but I also know that I am there, right now, like I was always meant to be.

[midicon]

Heaven - Wikipedia - Nothing that you learn at school or in science is useful in understanding the things of heaven. You have to look to mystics, philosophers, scriptures, reasoners and those who have had direct revelation.

90% of what you will read online is not credible. And LLM summaries of that cloud of nonsense is even more deceptive.

You have to read that ancient stuff, then reason from the foundations, and make decisions to throw out what doesn't fit.

I take the Bible to be the best reference, but not modern interpretations of what the majority 'think' the Bible says. You have to stick to the text and be very wary of adding to, or subtracting from, the text. The world is full of those that sermonize on tiny snippets, and never read the whole text - in context. They don't even search to disprove their interpretations, or cross-check to find if their interpretation is at odds with other passages. Worse, they build fake edifices on their misinterpretation and if someone calls them out, they pronounce the genuine seekers and learners as heretical!

There are so many instances, and they are very-very common.

How many times have you been preached at of 'the three Eastern kings' at the nativity of Jesus? Yet in the texts there is no mention of their number, nor were they kings, they were from a particular tribal group from the North (and that also currebtly survives in India), and they didn't turn up to see a newborn in an animal feeding trough (they went to a house, and Jesus was about two years old at the time).

There are hundreds of similar misinterpretations preached as if the direct text weren't right, there in everyone's plain view!

That is why it is important to study the Bible and not just passively let someone's words just flow over you, gullibly accepting their 'preaching' expertise.

As to heaven,
- No-one is given in one-to-one marriage there. It isn't that neccessary.
- There is no more death.
- All pain is gone.
- Tears are wiped away (there is loving concern for everyone).
- There we are in the direct prescence of the creator, without being un-made.
- We all are embodied there, but not with these blind, deaf, dumb shells. We are different. So much better, so capable, everything is easier, eveything is fun. If we had a purpose on Earth and we achieve it, it feels good, like we were made for it, but there, that was really what we were made for.

As for me, I am standing in such a large crowd of souls that they look like a surging ocean of pure colourless glass.

I am singing at the top of my lungs, with no pitch too high or low for me to sing. There is no limit of lung capacity. I can do this, without break, for ages.

My arms are lifted in abandon, weightless, or perhaps I am a star with the arc of a prominence raised in praise to the source of all power and light.

I don't even really feel the need to comprehend what I am. I know and am fully known by all around me. We are individuals but joined in new, deep, ways.

And when we are here, we are other places, too. And we all still have stuff to do. Important stuff that we were made for. I am in superposition all over the place.

Imagine if you could turn on pleasure pathways in your body and brain, and your loved ones, and there were no negative consequence. So, you do.

And you have to allow everyone in to touch the most fragile and dark parts of your psyche, as you do only with loved ones. Soon, they bring in their loved ones. Who bring in more. But those fierce individualists who fear to be touched, isolate and can't participate. They create their own isolation and hell from their fear and shame.

And all the rest of your minds are bumped up in performance and not lost in the feelings. A clarity more real sharp and clear than this dim, cloudy, indistinct matter world.

I know that all this is 'still to happen' in our temporal frame, but I also know that I am there, right now, like I was always meant to be.

None of that appeals to me or suggests you know anything about heaven.

Thank you for replying though. I appreciate it.

[Roma]

I love your thoughts.

I only have a problem with you blaming the devil because doesn't humanity have free will?

Can't they just resist "evil"? 


By the way, I don't think the devil and lucifer and satan are the same?!

Yes, I believe humanity has free will.  Can people resist evil, as you say?  Hmmm, take a look around and tell me.  What makes some people choose to do good, and others wrong?  Are there folks out there who are inherently evil, and what makes them that way?  We could start a whole new thread on this.

I am curious why you think the devil and lucifer are not the same?

[andy06shake]

Yes, I believe humanity has free will.  Can people resist evil, as you say?  Hmmm, take a look around and tell me.  What makes some people choose to do good, and others wrong?  Are there folks out there who are inherently evil, and what makes them that way?  We could start a whole new thread on this.

I am curious why you think the devil and lucifer are not the same?

I'll have a stab at that one if it's ok.

The way we are brought up and our ability to determine right from wrong are what make most people choose to do good.

Essentially, monkey see monkey do, after all, we are products of the environment in which we are raised.

Now where free will is concerned, it isn't free in the sense of without consequence.

It's free in the sense of not being predetermined.

[LightAngel]

I'll have a stab at that one if it's ok.

The way we are brought up and our ability to determine right from wrong are what make most people choose to do good.

Essentially, monkey see monkey do, after all, we are products of the environment in which we are raised.

Now where free will is concerned, it isn't free in the sense of without consequence.

It's free in the sense of not being predetermined.

Agreed! 

Ok, I just posted a long reply, but I removed it again because I think you explained it good and to the point, and I am sure most people can read between the lines. 

[LightAngel]

Yes, I believe humanity has free will.  Can people resist evil, as you say?  Hmmm, take a look around and tell me.  What makes some people choose to do good, and others wrong?  Are there folks out there who are inherently evil, and what makes them that way?  We could start a whole new thread on this.

I am curious why you think the devil and lucifer are not the same?

Most people aren't evil even the ones who do bad things, but evil does exist it can just be difficult to paint a perfect picture to show what true evil is.

Because human beings are complex, and often what looks like "bad" behavior comes from fear, ignorance, or desperation. 

By the way, I already posted a topic about evil, here: Is Evil Real?


About the devil and lucifer question. 

Lucifer means Light-bringer, a name for the morning star Venus.

The Devil means adversary or slanderer, the enemy of God and tempter of humankind.

[LightAngel]

I'm reading a little more about it now, and this is very interesting. 

Because in Roman poetry, Lucifer was not evil at all. It was Christian theology that merged the figure of Lucifer with Satan and created the image of Lucifer as the Devil.

[midicon]

I'm reading a little more about it now, and this is very interesting. 

Because in Roman poetry, Lucifer was not evil at all. It was Christian theology that merged the figure of Lucifer with Satan and created the image of Lucifer as the Devil.

Are you a Christian LightAngel? I'm curious given your name. I hope not.

I don't believe in the Devil or Lucifer as being 'real' and as far as I know it's pretty much common knowledge that the church merged that nonsense.

I like the names and ideas though they are great for poetry and they can also reveal a lot about a person's character and mindset when the subject is brought up. Just like the word 'heaven'.

A bit like me asking Chronaut about his assertions and why he could make them. The answer of course was  nothing more than I expected but I'm always prepared to be surprised, in a good way. It rarely happens though.

If nothing else I am always honest.

[Quantum12]

Are you a Christian LightAngel? I'm curious given your name. I hope not.

I don't believe in the Devil or Lucifer as being 'real' and as far as I know it's pretty much common knowledge that the church merged that nonsense.

I like the names and ideas though they are great for poetry and they can also reveal a lot about a person's character and mindset when the subject is brought up. Just like the word 'heaven'.

A bit like me asking Chronaut about his assertions and why he could make them. The answer of course was  nothing more than I expected but I'm always prepared to be surprised, in a good way. It rarely happens though.

If nothing else I am always honest.

Agreed 

[Roma]

I'm reading a little more about it now, and this is very interesting. 

Because in Roman poetry, Lucifer was not evil at all. It was Christian theology that merged the figure of Lucifer with Satan and created the image of Lucifer as the Devil.

Interesting you say this.  I was once told (and some would consider this "out there") that Lucifer was not evil.  But he had a brother who was jealous, and it was the brother that incited the rebellion against God.  Lucifer was blamed and so in a sense was framed for his crimes.

I have no way of verifying this story but it kind of lines up with your Roman poetry a bit.

Cheers.