Has Ukraine collapsed

[Kurokage]

I asked a question..


They fled to live.  And continue to leave to not be conscripted.  Is that false.

You're also missing the fact that millions of Russian have also fled to avoid fighting in Ukraine. As of 2022 650,000 Russians fled, imagine what that number is now?

[andy06shake]

Sometimes the only way to win is to not play the game.  And yet people left and are leaving to prevent being conscripted.

Love the line WallFlowerActice, love the movie.

Real life and strife, however, are somewhat more complicated.

As to conscription, their nation, their laws, their rules.

You would not wish them to come and tell you how to make the bed...

[WallFlowerActive]

Love the line WallFlowerActice, love the movie.

Real life and strife, however, are somewhat more complicated.

As to conscription, their nation, their laws, their rules.

You would not wish them to come and tell you how to make the bed...

The 81 percent you claim want the Ukraine to continue fighting burn through a whole generation while people are leaving the Ukraine to prevent being conscripted, and the Ukraine collapses.  What then.




The general consensus, it takes having the advantage of 5 or 7 men to one to take and hold land.  Vietnam proved you need boots on the ground to actually hold land. 

Realistically.  Outline where the Ukraine is going to get the needed manpower with what equipment and tactics it will use to recapture lost lands and hold them.

[WallFlowerActive]

You're also missing the fact that millions of Russian have also fled to avoid fighting in Ukraine. As of 2022 650,000 Russians fled, imagine what that number is now?

Shrugs..

[andy06shake]

The 81 percent you claim want the Ukraine to continue fighting burn through a whole generation while people are leaving the Ukraine to prevent being conscripted, and the Ukraine collapses.  What then.

[Image: https://denyignorance.com/uploader/image...06670.jpeg]


The general consensus, it takes having the advantage of 5 or 7 men to one to take and hold land.  Vietnam proved you need boots on the ground to actually hold land. 

Realistically.  Outline where the Ukraine is going to get the needed manpower with what equipment and tactics it will use to recapture lost lands and hold them.

A little bit of your own advice.

How about replying to what I actually posted? 
 
Anyhoo, that's just another argument that pretends Ukraine is choosing between "fight" and "collapse" which is false.

Ukraine is fighting because the alternative is occupation, repression, and the end of sovereignty as a nation.

People fleeing conscription happens in every war, it doesn't mean society is emptying out.

Your "5–7 to 1" rule is outdated tank-era bull@hit.

Modern warfare uses satellite imagery, drones, artillery, precision strikes, and defenses, not human waves.

Vietnam proves nothing here.

Ukraine is defending its own land with mass popular support.

Manpower comes from rotation and training.

And allies supplying weapons.

Russia is bleeding people, too.

If Ukraine wishes to continue to fight for their very survival, who are you to tell them otherwise?

Again, would you give up and submit if Russia invades the USA?

Start answering some questions, please.

Instead of simply spewing forth Kremlin rhetoric.

[WallFlowerActive]

How about replying to what I actually posted? 

And yet the Ukrainian has lost territory and is losing territory.  How do you turn the tide.

Manpower comes from actual people and birth rates.  Training doesn’t turn rocks into people.  

There was lots to learn from Vietnam.  Like you can’t bomb your way to holding land.  You need men to hold land.  

Where large portions of the population of the Ukraine are leaving before being conscripted.

[andy06shake]

And yet the Ukrainian has lost territory and is losing territory.  How do you turn the tide.

Manpower comes from actual people and birth rates.  Training doesn’t turn rocks into people.  

There was lots to learn from Vietnam.  Like you can’t bomb your way to holding land.  You need men to hold land.  

Where large portions of the population of the Ukraine are leaving before being conscripted.

And yet you refuse to answer simple questions, even when others endeavor to answer your own. 

"Would you give up and submit if Russia invades the USA?"

You also like to mix partial truths and turn them into false conclusions.

Territory loss doesn't mean inevitable defeat.

Wars routinely swing after years of stalemate.

And yes, manpower matters, but modern warfare is not Vietnam(jungle warfare), or anything reminiscent of the sorts 

Again, drones, artillery, ISR, and precision cruise missile strikes, massively change force ratios.

And training absolutely matters.

Because trained units survive more and kill at far higher rates than untrained masses.

Ukraine isn't failing to hold land due to cowardice or people fleeing.

It's fighting a vastly larger nation with deeper reserves. 

Vietnam's lesson wasn't "men alone win" wars.

But that legitimacy, logistics, and sustained support decide wars.

America got beaten because it vastly underestimated its opponent abroad.

Ukraine doesn't have that luxury.

[UltraBudgie]

Noticing that Putin has been very Russian in his conflict with Ukraine, methodically cautious and precise
Slowly moving forward, hard to compare the way Putin wages war with anything that the US has done recently, noting that the nature of modern military tactics have changed so significantly with drones 
Last couple of days, Russia have gained some interesting ground and very rapidly, on motorbikes. Uke soldiers have been retreating en mass.

Kind of wondering if Ukraine soldiers have had enough, not just the fighting but the corruption being reported back in Kiev.
Have the boots on ground reached their limit, realised they are not just fighting Russia but also have to fight their own corrupt leaders in the years ahead

Yes they probably are, but I am curious about the bit about motorbikes. I did a quick search and all I could see in the first page was articles about how Ukraine has been obliterating Russian motorbike brigades? And how their own are so awesome?

[WallFlowerActive]

And yet you refuse to answer simple questions,

 

own. 

"

Me?  I keep citing sources outlining the actual situation.  And making logical conclusions.

The Ukraine has a manpower shortage.  Not a training problem.  While Russia literally has millions more than the Ukrainian.  With the Ukraine losing territory week to week.

Again.  The general consensus is an advantage of 5 or 7 to one to take territory and hold it.  What gets the Ukraine the advantage to recapture scores of square kilometres of lost land and hold it where Russia has the manpower advantage.

[Oldcarpy2]

And yet the Ukrainian has lost territory and is losing territory.  How do you turn the tide.

Manpower comes from actual people and birth rates.  Training doesn’t turn rocks into people.  

There was lots to learn from Vietnam.  Like you can’t bomb your way to holding land.  You need men to hold land.  

Where large portions of the population of the Ukraine are leaving before being conscripted.

Perhaps research the Spartans?

Or the Glorious Gloucester's, where 700 British soldiers held out despite 10,000 Chinese attacking in waves in the Korean War?