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10-05-2025, 12:43 PM
(10-05-2025, 10:01 AM)FlyersFan Wrote: Obligations and a 'right' are two different things. Like rights to arms but an obligation to keep them out of the hands of criminals and nutters? It's just concepts anyway but you're right we're going off topic. Complicated stuff and as you say healthcare ain't free and neither are roads. 
 (10-05-2025, 11:45 AM)Maxmars Wrote: 1. Most of the "psychiatric" and "psychological" sciences have the SAME effect on those 'subject' to them as Tarot cards, astrology, numerology... You sound angry. Have you had bad personal encounters with the psychiatric profession at some time in your past? In my view, psychiatry can be enormously helpful to sufferers from various mental disorders. That we sometimes don't quite know how it works is not a disqualification – the same is true of a number of medicines and procedures used to treat physical illnesses. In fact, there was an era in medicine, ending less than two hundred years ago, when doctors had no understanding of how any treatment worked, except for surgery. Replying your points, as numbered above: 1. This sounds rather cynical, unless you believe astrology, numerology and the Tarot can help people understand and cope with mental illness as well as psychiatry can. That is manifestly untrue. People who undergo analysis do often improve or recover – by their own report and that of others, including clinicians. You are presuming a false equivalence. 2. I have no idea what you mean. Perhaps you could clarify, or rephrase. 3. This has nothing whatever to do with the points I was making. You seem more concerned with the social or political implications of psychiatry (and giving them a rather paranoid spin) than in discussing whether or not it really helps people. 4. Again, I'm afraid this is quite opaque to me. What system? What does the system want buried? Can a system even have desires? And if it can't (and in fact, it can't), then whose desires are we really talking about? 
10-07-2025, 01:12 PM
(10-07-2025, 08:05 AM)Astyanax Wrote: You sound angry. Have you had bad personal encounters with the psychiatric profession at some time in your past? Thank your for the response... You are correct regarding a palpable degree of angst and resentment towards the practice of the dance we call Psychiatry. I do sincerely apologize about that. This topics' relevance to me may make my assertions unworthy of consideration... (see what I mean? it could also prompt a care provider to respond to how they "feel" about them.) I make no assertion that anyone should care to 'dive in' to this aspect of my own perceptions... these are frank perceptions about some very clear events.... buckle up... set sail on the S.S. Intensity.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I often complain about "systems" that are repeating the same anti-social offenses... acceptable because of "who they are." It is entirely not related to specific people, or even entire offices of those whose hearts are filled by helping others. My acceptance does not extend to the indoctrination injected into it... ("professionals" do that to nearly everything.) ... It does extend to the heart that wants to soothe and heal... it does extend to the individuals who try their best within a flawed construct. It's about the "established" construct, the enforced myopia, the refusal to challenge that "commerce" is a "vital" component of healing (As capitalists, and socialists alike endorse... a thing that should make everyone say "hmm.") But I can see how this is neither here nor there to anyone who is vested or entrenched in it. I am always trying to remain dispassionate in analysis... but here.... this is a subject in which "i have directly observed" actual ongoing reality; - not some narrative from generations past, in which everyone is twisted with a dark desire to have sex with their parents, and the industry of medicine is near-holy. (Recall those titans of science embraced their own reported narrative.... "we are all 'xyz'...") - not some clinical theories, celebrity doctor bullshit, televised drama about the honor and dignity of cute "doctors" and their highly entertaining tv-world... nor some Hollywood drama about dissatisfaction with current policies about "coverage." And heroically noble efforts to remedy them. I have witnessed the truth of reaching out for help... and being "granted" a 10-15 minute audience with someone who already diagnosed from the 'scan' job of your chart. A different 'stable' doctor most times... He or she checks the table and charts from Pharma... (so much so that it is a "reference" for them)... then embarking on a "try this... try that..." game costing the patient time, money, and probably so much more... "See you in a month (or two)!" "Let's see how this works...." Meanwhile the patient's "cycle of care" is etched in insurance company stone. Deviate not... the system knows best. Leading to: "Sorry.... the 'system" doesn't cover xxx meds.... too bad those are the one's that brought you relief... oh well, let's try something less effective but cheaper... Doesn't work?... Oh well.... let's try this...." A hundred times too many in my observational experience.... It naturally evokes cynicism and grief to me. I only share the following as a "bad" experience... which never turned me off to medicine... or even psychiatry... just how people "pretend" that "that's what we're all doing." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Upon a recent devastating loss... (not seeking condolences)... I had a period of utter despair which, I felt, was making it impossible for me to function in public. At the behest of my deeply-concerned professional therapist daughter, I sought help... in person, directly.... REFUSED at the deepest point of need. Demanded an email address when I literally had none. "I can't enter you in the system without it." (I had become displaced, no permanent address...) I had full ID, full "multiple vestments of care" on the record - I had coverage... But data commerce comes first. REFUSED TO SEE ME... Solution 1: I 'pretended' to be suicidal and voluntarily shared imaginary ideation "so they could see me under that pretense." I have never been suicidal... so no. Solution 2: Use your daughter's address... Works for the interface... of course, now you have "Falsified the record." with whatever that risks. And they still can't contact you.... only your daughter. Whom you cannot reach right now. The solutions were offered with a clear directive in mind... get the "data" before the care "service." Because we all now how many times people actually plan to be in emotional crisis... only to skip out on the bill. Yet they were offered as solutions... I think no one wanted to say "sorry no help here" so they were trying to help me... I have no hard feelings about that at all... They are merely "operators" of a system. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The system is engineered and operated to first serve 'the system' so many people obtusely refuse to recognize. (Until it hits them in the face.) My rejections of the psychiatric 'in practice' status quo, and the systemic machinery erected by the insurance industry (which engendered the most exploitative processes to ensure that being a patient is no longer a temporary situation but a life-long sentence "the spice must flow.") ... with the "customer" (who is supposed to be a patient) beholden to insurance company 'accounting.' People like me, who occasionally express themselves as I do, are familiar with spurious intimations of having 'symptoms' of some affectation or another... oddly, the more psychologically indoctrinated the listener, the more specific and refined the label signaling. It's normal to have that for me. (But admittedly, I was a slow learner... it took me a while to grasp that for many "Anyone who is antagonistic to their profession MUST be suffering from some spectrum of insanity.) Yet people have always been socially dysfunctional. Society is as alive as it's constituents, including aberrations of social behavior... Psychiatry in my twisted personal vision, which press-releases, media, and fairy tales suggest is "intended"... should be patient-centric, but can this be 'that'? really? That is NOT what's happening... in my experience... (when to even approach with need evokes battalions of middlemen "deciding" what your treatment will and won't be.) service is peremptorily metered, apportioned, rendered into statistical harmony upon reporting, all the elements of the human suffering it's meant to address extracted. This 'system' seems to be about drugging the patient into social invisibility - as an imperative... "Don't be you, drug you away and fit in." Addressing the social symptom as a first (and often only) step of treatment... And they call that "mental health care." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I know, that's a lot to unpack... you needn't struggle... it is ultimately an unimpressive everyday occurrence in the industry... making people "healthier." The narrative is not mine... it's theirs. 
10-10-2025, 08:46 PM
(10-05-2025, 12:37 PM)Ray1990 Wrote: It's legal via prescription. The NHS prescribes sativex for certain (strict) conditions or you can go down the private prescription route as an alternative treatment option when other treatments have failed. Please stop responding to two people at once.
"The only journey is the one within."
(10-07-2025, 01:12 PM)Maxmars Wrote: 1. You are correct regarding a palpable degree of angst and resentment towards the practice... I do sincerely apologize about that. First of all, I’m sorry for not responding earlier. I have been busy and I have been unwell. Regarding your points (as numbered by me above), 1. There is no need to apologize to me. I’m not a psychiatrist, a healthcare provider or an insurance agent. 2. I see what you’re getting at, but there is a fundamental issue of moral philosophy I think you have missed. A system has no mind, no heart, no conscience or ability to understand moral issues. It is just a thing. Only people can be evil, only people can do wrong, and if you believe you are the victim of some system, you’re really a victim of the people who designed the system, the ones who approved it for use and the ones working within the system who hurt you. Not just the person who was your point of contact with the system, but all who contribute to make the system what it is, and work to keep it running. That’s a lot of people, but it is they and only they – never the system – that must be held to account. It seems quite plain to me that it is not the science (or, if you prefer, the theoretical system) of psychiatry that has caused you so much pain and grief, but the cruelty and absurdity of the system of healthcare provision in your country. The individual psychiatrist is culpable only to the extent that they participate in the system; but you must not forget that the psychiatrist is also constrained in his or her action. Indeed, they may have less freedom of action than you do. If they wish to help people, they must practise, which means operating within the system (I'm thinking about that 15-minute consultation). If they choose to work outside the system, they lose patients, lose their reputation and the support of the professional community, may even lose their licence to practice. Then they won't be able to help people at all. Psychiatry, whether we regard it as pseudoscience or not, has nothing to do with your problems. 3. I do not believe that anywhere in the textbooks of medicine – psychiatry included – is it stated that commerce is a vital aspect of healing. As I’m sure you know, healthcare provision in many countries is seen by the state as a responsibility the government bears towards its citizens, and it foots all the bills. Ultimately, of course, the bills are paid out of taxes, but paying those taxes is, to the citizen, both part of their responsibility towards their fellow-citizens and an investment in the care they will, in the future, require themselves. Having witnessed and sometimes relied on socialised healthcare, I know that it can often be as regimented and monolithically inhumane as privately funded care. Doctors, including psychiatrists, are overworked, stressed-out and often resentful at how the system forces them to operate. Nurses are stretched to breaking-point. Clinics, doctors and labs are often underfunded. The makers of drugs and other necessaries are profit-driven private firms and their demands often leave governments struggling to meet the bills. All this is true, but there is one difference: public healthcare is rarely unfeeling, because its sole objective is helping people. There is no profit motive. But these issues, too, have nothing to do with psychiatry. 4. We have, I fear, been talking past each other. I’ve had the chance to glance at a few other posts on the thread and it seems the debate, as usual on this board, is about politics and not about the ostensible subject (which I take to be psychiatry) at all. Well, I’m not interested in discussing the politics of healthcare. I wanted to defend psychiatry – pseudoscience or not – from the suggestion in your post, that it is some kind of confidence trick, based on fake evidence and false theoretical foundations. I have now done this to the best of my ability given the little time I have to spend here, and this will be my last contribution to the thread. 
10-11-2025, 07:48 AM
"Science" sounds a lot like a Limited Liability Corporation.
It's never their fault. Hey, remember when the American Psychiatric Association helped the US military figure out the best way to torture prisoners?
10-11-2025, 10:58 AM
(10-11-2025, 12:10 AM)Astyanax Wrote: .... Thank you for your answer... I agree we are not completely in synch here, and I apologize for not making that easier. I appreciate your coming back, and I regret you will not be able to complete our exchange... just out of respect, I will address a few points you made... not to have a final word, but in the hopes that you are surprised with some free time, and seek to relive this conversation. I admit my barely concealable angst about the crushing experiences I have had with the psychiatric industry. I do tend to express that state of my affairs with emotion and zeal.... And assuming it could be any consolation, If I hypercritically said that all of psychiatry is a con game... that was unfair.... but a few tweaks makes it quite neutral... The psychiatric institutions may as well be a con game... for the consistency of it's inability to scale for business without betraying the word "service" in "service industry" .... However the same can be said for the Physician industry, the Dental industry... the Cosmetics industry, ... and so on.... anywhere there is a team of doctors hitched up to an insurance wagon... I don't claim that people consciously choose to believe that commerce is a vital component of healing. But find me one middleman who won't deny he is a middleman... between health care promises and health care... they won't ever accept that they don't belong in the doctor patient relationship. (Especially not in the delivery or execution of healthcare.) But there they are - can't please the system... "ooooooh, so sorry.... bye!" I know it's not just me... I bring it up now because it is contemporary to my experience. I carry no grudge, except in principle... and I share it here.... Those "proud" to be associated with the prestige have earned that prerogative... but that's all that is.... My constantly repeating experience is that all those associates immediate start simply proclaiming me "ill-minded" when I recount the documented occurrences... and they project emotional signals like crazy... I'm not optimistic about the culture of medicine anymore.... I remember calls from doctors spuriously at my home... "Is little Manny doing OK?" Can I drop by on my way home to take a peek at him?" .... what's that? No! No charge, it was on my way... I only charge you for office visits... "how are you feeling?" You know, a doctor doctoring. Now it more likely pay more for a royal visit with a godling at worst, or the insurance industry's best conveyor-belt 'cattle-management.' In the end the insurance company WILL decide when you MAY have the money you need. The medical industry embraces the construct with both arms and a leg. I know that's not a pretty picture... but without knowing what's wrong you can never really expect to fix a problem... sorry it stings.... (hmm, don't I sound "clinically detached?") Somehow still... ALL survey and all testimonials speak to the contrary, and billions are diverted towards the improvement and self evaluation of the industry and it's vital bits. lobbying, ... "research," .. yet the construct remains with it's problems fully entrenched... ... and occasionally the embrace is noticeably more than platonic.
10-11-2025, 11:04 AM
(10-11-2025, 07:48 AM)UltraBudgie Wrote: "Science" sounds a lot like a Limited Liability Corporation. If we're talking about the corporate raison d'être... the entire reason for it's existence as a "unit" of corporate widgetry... they wouldn't be there if they could be sued for what they do... (and apparently they'll do anything otherwise for a buck.) Associations are like activists.... their premise is now a lie. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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