(10-04-2025, 01:19 PM)FlyersFan Wrote: Sure.   Life, liberty and the pursuit of  happiness.
Nothing there about the right to free health care.
(Nothing there about the right to abortions either.)

If health care became a 'right', then the government would have to provide it.
And like I said before, there are big problems with that as a 'right'.
The government would have to force people to become nurses and doctors 
and workers in factories that make medical equipment and drugs.
And the government would have to pay them all and take over production and distribution.
That is the only way to make sure that the 'right' to health care is fulfilled.
That's slavery to the state .... communism.

You have a right to live.
You have a right to liberty.
You have a right to try to be happy.
You don't have a 'right' to healthcare.
It's a commodity or a service ... to be bought ... it's not a 'right'.

The US government and states have obligations towards it's citizens, many of these obligations have industries associated with them, I'm not aware of anyone being forced into slave labour to provide essential materials and goods outside of the prison population. Nobody is being drafted to fight fires, enforce laws, maintain critical infrastructure etc etc nor is anyone being forced to make the stuff to keep it all working.

Just seems a bit extreme to say "well if you want free healthcare we'll have to become communists and bring back slavery" when the US has plenty of examples of 'quasi-socialism' that are already well supplied by the private sector using public funds.

On topic:

I couldn't call it pseudoscience since a lot of the medications work such as antipsychotics, I do see it in a similar light as 'clipping nerves' to stop chronic pain. It doesn't cure the root cause but it does obliterate the ability to feel/perceive. Both can be tackled psychologically which somewhat reinforces the nuances associated with consciousness and the human body. There's no real test for pain or mental distress which I guess is akin to listening to Dr's play operation in the dark... Results are often a bit shocking.

(10-05-2025, 08:43 AM)andy06shake Wrote: Everyone contributes to taxes and national insurance, hence the right.

You aren't getting what I'm saying.
If something is a promised 'right', then the government has to make sure it's available.
That means they have to take over production and distribution.
That means they have to make sure there are doctors and nurses and specialists.
If something isn't available, then the persons rights have been violated.
Universal healthcare is different than a 'right'.
It's something that is provided while available.
The government doesn't have the obligation to make sure it's available.
But with a 'right' promised by the government ... they do have to.

(10-05-2025, 09:42 AM)Ray1990 Wrote: The US government and states have obligations towards it's citizens, 

Obligations and a 'right' are two different things.
But this is off topic so I'll stop there.

(10-05-2025, 09:56 AM)FlyersFan Wrote: You aren't getting what I'm saying.
If something is a promised 'right', then the government has to make sure it's available.
That means they have to take over production and distribution.
That means they have to make sure there are doctors and nurses and specialists.
If something isn't available, then the persons rights have been violated.
Universal healthcare is different than a 'right'.
It's something that is provided while available.
The government doesn't have the obligation to make sure it's available.
But with a 'right' promised by the government ... they do have to.

There are no promises in this verse, despite what some people may believe.

I mean, you could argue about the likes of God given rights.

But the truth is, there are simply no guarantees.

As for people's rights, it seems to me that those are often violated all the time, by those in power, if the cap fits or the moment suits.

Truth is, money talks, and the rest of us do the walk....

(10-05-2025, 09:42 AM)Ray1990 Wrote: The US government and states have obligations towards it's citizens, many of these obligations have industries associated with them, I'm not aware of anyone being forced into slave labour to provide essential materials and goods outside of the prison population. Nobody is being drafted to fight fires, enforce laws, maintain critical infrastructure etc etc nor is anyone being forced to make the stuff to keep it all working.

Just seems a bit extreme to say "well if you want free healthcare we'll have to become communists and bring back slavery" when the US has plenty of examples of 'quasi-socialism' that are already well supplied by the private sector using public funds.

On topic:

I couldn't call it pseudoscience since a lot of the medications work such as antipsychotics, I do see it in a similar light as 'clipping nerves' to stop chronic pain. It doesn't cure the root cause but it does obliterate the ability to feel/perceive. Both can be tackled psychologically which somewhat reinforces the nuances associated with consciousness and the human body. There's no real test for pain or mental distress which I guess is akin to listening to Dr's play operation in the dark... Results are often a bit shocking.

If I might comment tangentially...

I am going to ask you a question that is sort of personally relevant to me... a curiosity to indulge for myself.

I think you and I have parallel observations, which - we both might argue - are distinct and different from each other (bravo, as an aside) ... In some elemental things,
we seem to disagree yet it seems strangely pleasant - because ...
we still come to the same conclusions....
speaking (maybe) to some unacknowledged agreement about all this...

I'm not trying to reduce for those who block themselves from "psychobabble"... 
but I wonder if this is a quirk of my perceptions or a real thing...  

You see, I have bad experiences that could be considered grounds for bias against the way the Psychiatric "arts" are being trained for commerce, risk/threatened into impotence, who will not stand up for the principles it represents, then yields to commerce pressure above all...

and made me perceive that I was not a patient... I am a "customer."

I maintain that some of their staff are the most indoctrinate drone-like, cattle-hand-management-style employees on the planet... second only to the beaten, dead-eyed, timid machine parts we often find in tenured civil service... (shades of insurance company syndrome.)

Their 'state of the art' treatment destroyed my life.

And I am a bad patient... because I am ungrateful for the spreadsheet diagnoses, the "pharma chart" treatment, and the stringent 15-minute visits you have wait for months, if not weeks, to be "grateful" for.

Then to watch the establishment describe them, and everything they do, as deeply healing and humane and caring. 

Heroes one and all....

It only makes me weep for the true heroes who somehow are always lost in the virtue "marketing."
The employee who discretely mentions a different drug they had heard of, the "other" practices that aren't crippled by pharma/insurance models of how their world is to work.

The pyramid is upside down folks...

If the "leaders" did the work, or God forbid, were actually subject to it, things would then change - immediately.

(10-05-2025, 10:36 AM)Maxmars Wrote: and made me perceive that I was not a patient... I am a "customer."

i am sorry to hear of your experience maxmars and wish i could say it is an unusual one but i think i agree with you and the hellth care system is conform-or-destroy type of beast. perhaps the best that could be said is it serves some mean koolaid or teaches one with a cattle prod to be self-sufficient in all things. and you are right, you are literally a 'customer' to them:

(05-13-2024, 02:24 AM)Karl12 Wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on how psychiatry can not be considered a pseudosciemce considering it's absolute lack of objective evidence?

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on the content of the vids or statements made below.

Cheers.

Hay Karl, I will be filing another UFO report on NUFORC. Same type as I reported back on May 4, 2018 over the Savannah River Nuclear Reservation in South Carolina. Luis Elizondo testifyed to Congress under oath that UFOs appear over Savannah River. I agree. Ill bet he knows that from US Geopositional Satillite thats over Savannah River  that can ony be seen with a Night Vision Camera or Scope. I saw it. That or USA owns them as reverse engineered craft.  

Now, to anwser your question, former CIA Spook INGO SWANN. Heres his WIKI page. I learned about him from Dr. Pasulka. She hangs with Dr. Garry Nolan, Stanford University 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingo_Swann 

Dr. Pasulka

https://dwpasulka.com/

Cheers, my sister in law lives just outside London, UK  with her husband. She writes on a blog; Pandoras Pitstop

Haven't read much of the thread, but what an interesting topic.

My own view is that psychoanalysis, although experimentally unconvincing, does indeed offer insights that are useful for people to understand themselves, and can be helpful to neurotics. They can recover with the help of analysis, or at least learn to cope with and even positively leverage their problems.

Psychotics respond to drugs but not to analysis. The drugs suppress the symptoms but the patient never gets well. Stop the drugs and back come the 'demons'.

Meanwhile the drugs are playing hell with the patient's liver and kidneys.

(10-05-2025, 11:19 AM)Astyanax Wrote: Haven't read much of the thread, but what an interesting topic.

My own view is that psychoanalysis, although experimentally unconvincing, does indeed offer insights that are useful for people to understand themselves, and can be helpful to neurotics. They can recover with the help of analysis, or at least learn to cope with and even positively leverage their problems.

Psychotics respond to drugs but not to analysis. The drugs suppress the symptoms but the patient never gets well. Stop the drugs and back come the 'demons'.

Meanwhile the drugs are playing hell with the patient's liver and kidneys.

Excellent points all!

I have made this point before, and some take it a cynicism, but it's meant more as an observation "in effect"... Most of the "psychiatric" and "psychological" sciences have the SAME effect on those 'subject' to them as Tarot cards, astrology, numerology...

But these "scientists" have adopted a paradigm of process in which 'social' ("mental") behaviors which are now exploited... and 'cues' which WILL be addressed, whether you can or can't cope with the distinction or not.

At some point the ratio of 'victims' of medical "practice" will lead to them claiming a voice....
Only to be immediately silenced by partisan bullshit, media bullshit, talking head bullshit, an orgasm of virtue signaling... you know... all those "social things."

Sure have a voice.... but you won't be heard... every single element of the system want's it "settled" (buried)
- which is so transparent.... right?

Can you see the response: and article somewhere entitled:
"Mental Health Care: Success stories of western medicine..." just waiting to be lampooned. 
If you're quiet.... you can actually hear it coming.

(10-04-2025, 12:16 PM)quintessentone Wrote: Why is marijuana illegal in your country? That one industry can create many jobs with a cannabis dispensary shop on every corner.

"The Cannabis Industry Now Supports More Than 440,000 Full-Time Jobs" (USA)

It's legal via prescription. The NHS prescribes sativex for certain (strict) conditions or you can go down the private prescription route as an alternative treatment option when other treatments have failed.
 

(10-05-2025, 10:36 AM)Maxmars Wrote: If I might comment tangentially...

I am going to ask you a question that is sort of personally relevant to me... a curiosity to indulge for myself.

I think you and I have parallel observations, which - we both might argue - are distinct and different from each other (bravo, as an aside) ... In some elemental things,
we seem to disagree yet it seems strangely pleasant - because ...
we still come to the same conclusions....
speaking (maybe) to some unacknowledged agreement about all this...

I'm not trying to reduce for those who block themselves from "psychobabble"... 
but I wonder if this is a quirk of my perceptions or a real thing...  

You see, I have bad experiences that could be considered grounds for bias against the way the Psychiatric "arts" are being trained for commerce, risk/threatened into impotence, who will not stand up for the principles it represents, then yields to commerce pressure above all...

and made me perceive that I was not a patient... I am a "customer."

I maintain that some of their staff are the most indoctrinate drone-like, cattle-hand-management-style employees on the planet... second only to the beaten, dead-eyed, timid machine parts we often find in tenured civil service... (shades of insurance company syndrome.)

Their 'state of the art' treatment destroyed my life.

And I am a bad patient... because I am ungrateful for the spreadsheet diagnoses, the "pharma chart" treatment, and the stringent 15-minute visits you have wait for months, if not weeks, to be "grateful" for.

Then to watch the establishment describe them, and everything they do, as deeply healing and humane and caring. 

Heroes one and all....

It only makes me weep for the true heroes who somehow are always lost in the virtue "marketing."
The employee who discretely mentions a different drug they had heard of, the "other" practices that aren't crippled by pharma/insurance models of how their world is to work.

The pyramid is upside down folks...

If the "leaders" did the work, or God forbid, were actually subject to it, things would then change - immediately.

I'm a customer of the UK cannabis industry... That's the only experience I have with private treatment, the NHS isn't profit driven when it comes to mental health although I imagine many would love to see it go that way as it leaves a lot to be desired. Aspects of it are somewhat privatised but generally the staff and the treatments are NHS sourced. From memory about a year or so ago I was on a medication (briefly) that cost about 10x as much in the US as it did the NHS via importation, just figured I'd mention that so there's a basic explanation of what the NHS attempts to do. Waiting lists here can be years long and if you're not in immediate distress my experiences are one of dismissal which I can't blame them for since dedicated mental health teams have 100's on their books and 1000's waiting. Their teams are tiny.

It's my opinion stability or contentment is best sought from within, one can get bitter if that journey is a solo one but it's also probably impossible to achieve if their isn't psychological stability in the first place. Some people need medication to stop hallucinations, OCD, panic attacks etc. 

Yeah there's definitely some true heroes out there attempting their best to assist people in assisting themselves. It's getting that message through to someone who is genuinely suffering that pulls my heartstrings and I can only imagine the burnout associated with doing it as a full-time job. i know a couple of psychologists that work with children or small handfuls of clients and always figured that's why, the few psychiatrists and advanced practitioners I've met always seemed a little dead behind the eyes. Again, I can't exactly blame them. There's suicides every week where I live and the majority are open to services or waiting somewhere in a queue.

Since the recession charities have picked up the slack which is a long-winding topic in itself since some have been adopted into new entities or being funded by councils.

So yeah... If you're a bad patient I'm a terrible one who decided to take my business elsewhere, the NHS has similar issues for the opposite reasons but realistically it always comes down to money doesn't it? Learning to 'cope' alone can lead to some bitter resentment and I'd be a liar if I said I don't hold any.

I hope you're doing alright Maxmars, you're a good egg