Columbia University has fallen

[Maxmars]

I'm still trying to figure out where all the protests were on Oct. 6th.

That is a most important question.

Frankly, the entire object of the argument seems based upon a premise that is poorly understood.

Exactly "how" is it that Israel is "occupying" Palestine?  I'm not excusing Israeli government policy that led to, and in some cases reinforced, an oppressive experience for the Palestinian people.  But Israel did not conquer the land they call home.  It was given by ostensibly international consent.  The fact that the Palestinians had no voice in the matter is proof that up until relatively recently, Palestine wasn't "a state," and hence didn't have standing in the debates that led to the establishment of Israel.  This cannot be changed by argumentation.

The activist movement in our country (and others) have relied heavily on emotionalism and social virtue signaling to ensure the footing of their complaint doesn't veer into this area of discussion.  But the emotionalism alone is 'good enough' for dominating the news cycle... this is a good one for keeping people feeling off-balance.

Before the October attack, Palestine "news" coverage was en par with the current "news" coverage about Sudan.  It does not, however, delegitimize the complaint, and therefore can easily turn into more noise in the thread.  A point ignored in our discussions, is seldom a point "lost;" although all conversations differ, of course.

In the end, until we can see defined in common terms "how" Palestine came to exist, and how the state never formed until after Israel was created remains very relevant to the pervasive word "occupied."

[DBCowboy]

That is a most important question.

Frankly, the entire object of the argument seems based upon a premise that is poorly understood.

Exactly "how" is it that Israel is "occupying" Palestine?  I'm not excusing Israeli government policy that led to, and in some cases reinforced, an oppressive experience for the Palestinian people.  But Israel did not conquer the land they call home.  It was given by ostensibly international consent.  The fact that the Palestinians had no voice in the matter is proof that up until relatively recently, Palestine wasn't "a state," and hence didn't have standing in the debates that led to the establishment of Israel.  This cannot be changed by argumentation.

The activist movement in our country (and others) have relied heavily on emotionalism and social virtue signaling to ensure the footing of their complaint doesn't veer into this area of discussion.  But the emotionalism alone is 'good enough' for dominating the news cycle... this is a good one for keeping people feeling off-balance.

Before the October attack, Palestine "news" coverage was en par with the current "news" coverage about Sudan.  It does not, however, delegitimize the complaint, and therefore can easily turn into more noise in the thread.  A point ignored in our discussions, is seldom a point "lost;" although all conversations differ, of course.

In the end, until we can see defined in common terms "how" Palestine came to exist, and how the state never formed until after Israel was created remains very relevant to the pervasive word "occupied."

I've no time to teach history about the Ottoman Empire, Britain and France and the spoils of war.

Palestinians  attacked, raped, killed, tortured hundreds on Oct 7th. 

They did that under the banner of hamas.

Any support for palestinians right now, while they serve under the hamas banner is a tacit approval of hammas.

[Maxmars]

I have no special standing to opine about things as you do; I don't refute you.

I don't approve of Hamas, nor any organization of that ilk.

But I still know this was not a 'spontaneous' event.  I feel it is relevant.

Just my opinion, of course... and frankly irrelevant since people are already entrenched in war...

[DBCowboy]

I have no special standing to opine about things as you do; I don't refute you.

I don't approve of Hamas, nor any organization of that ilk.

But I still know this was not a 'spontaneous' event.  I feel it is relevant.

Just my opinion, of course... and frankly irrelevant since people are already entrenched in war...

The timing is suspect since it happened two weeks after Biden gave Iran billions.

[Notran]

The lack of protests over the situation in Sudan highlights the hypocrisy and double standard trying to be forced upon the West. That is if the protests are really about humanitarian reasons. 




[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQmtHN6WkAAZ...name=small]

The Western Media show a great bias when coveringthe news all over the world and they don't give a damn at what's happening everywhere else if their interests are not affected. Take a look at how the war in Gaza is covered. They fail again and again to alert their viewers on the war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide, occuring in Gaza.

They have even failed to state the most obvious, Israel being the occupier and not the occupied.

If you fail to acknowledge the basics then you can't have a proper understanding of the situation and a fair coverage of the news.

[putnam6]

 Take a look at how the war in Gaza is covered. They fail again and again to alert their viewers on the war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide, occuring in Gaza.

They have even failed to state the most obvious, Israel being the occupier and not the occupied.

If you fail to acknowledge the basics then you can't have a proper understanding of the situation and a fair coverage of the news.

 


Gaza gets 100 times the coverage in the US media, coverage equals awareness.

You are referring to what amounts to an individual editorial opinion which may or may not reflect reality and in varying degrees. For example Im sure you look at Al Jazeera as mostly factual. Unfortunately, every media source seems to have its own bias slant. Its why discussions like these are important so individuals can hopefully make informed decisions

but don't take my word for it go to some of those aggregate cate new sites like Ground News, Gaza is featured prominently and has it's own section, but nothing on Sudan on page one. 

We've seen the same "facts" brought up on Al-Jazeera yet AJ doesn't have the best record of being non-biased and factual, especially concerning Israel and the US. 

FWIW it's not like I believe any news source 100% western or otherwise, thus the popularity of sites such as these. Furthermore Im just as skeptical of sources like Fox News

Of course, why while I appreciate hearing opposing opinions or even opinions that agree with, at some point, there needs to be corroborative evidence presented or we are just all spouting our opinions, ala Twitter or Discord. I had hoped Deny Ignorance aspired to be more, if one's opinion has merit one would think it would be easy to find pertinent source material and include the links or synopsis here. It's why I try and include links and quotes germane to the discussion. 

Ergo I pretty much know your viewpoint, Im interested in where that viewpoint developed and the sources used as the foundation of that viewpoint. 

https://ground.news/

 https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/

 

• Overall, we rate Al Jazeera Left-Center biased, based on story selection that slightly favors the left, and Mixed for factual reporting due to failed fact checks that were not corrected and misleading extreme editorial bias that favors Qatar.
  

---

Detailed ReportBias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: Qatar
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rank: LIMITED FREEDOM
Media Type: TV Station
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: MEDIUM CREDIBILITY
 

 
I give way more credence to sources from the middle...

[Notran]

 
[Image: https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPT...giphy.webp]

Gaza gets 100 times the coverage in the US media, coverage equals awareness.

You are referring to what amounts to an individual editorial opinion which may or may not reflect reality and in varying degrees. For example Im sure you look at Al Jazeera as mostly factual. Unfortunately, every media source seems to have its own bias slant. Its why discussions like these are important so individuals can hopefully make informed decisions

but don't take my word for it go to some of those aggregate cate new sites like Ground News, Gaza is featured prominently and has it's own section, but nothing on Sudan on page one. 

We've seen the same "facts" brought up on Al-Jazeera yet AJ doesn't have the best record of being non-biased and factual, especially concerning Israel and the US. 

FWIW it's not like I believe any news source 100% western or otherwise, thus the popularity of sites such as these. Furthermore Im just as skeptical of sources like Fox News

Of course, why while I appreciate hearing opposing opinions or even opinions that agree with, at some point, there needs to be corroborative evidence presented or we are just all spouting our opinions, ala Twitter or Discord. I had hoped Deny Ignorance aspired to be more, if one's opinion has merit one would think it would be easy to find pertinent source material and include the links or synopsis here. It's why I try and include links and quotes germane to the discussion. 

Ergo I pretty much know your viewpoint, Im interested in where that viewpoint developed and the sources used as the foundation of that viewpoint. 

https://ground.news/

 https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/
 
I give way more credence to sources from the middle...
[Image: https://adfontesmedia.com/wp-content/upl...scaled.jpg]

I am sorry but that's not true.

Gaza doesn't get coverage.

The Western MSM pushes the Israeli propaganda and the Zionist position.

On this topic they have zero credibility when they try to manufacture a picture that doesn't exist and a consensus that doesn't exist.

Israel is the occupier and it's committing war crimes, ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity. Many say it's committing genocide.
The world isn't having it and most countries have turned against Israel. Spain/Ireland
/Norway/ South Africa, and over 145 countries recognise Palestinian Statehood and many of them are directly accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide.

[putnam6]

I am sorry but that's not true.

Gaza doesn't get coverage.

The Western MSM pushes the Israeli propaganda and the Zionist position.

On this topic they have zero credibility when they try to manufacture a picture that doesn't exist and a consensus that doesn't exist.

Israel is the occupier and it's committing war crimes, ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity. Many say it's committing genocide.
The world isn't having it and most countries have turned against Israel. Spain/Ireland
/Norway/ South Africa, and over 145 countries recognise Palestinian Statehood and many of them are directly accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide.

Yeah, once again Notran Im aware of your opinion, probably know your viewpoint better than some of my family and friends on the subject. Just because you state something over and over doesn't make it any less of your opinion and turn it into fact. This is a well-known troll tactic BTW

My premise and the fact is the West reports about Gaza and its plight significantly more than the larger plight of the Sudanese. Where are the air drops and 500 Million spent to get aid to the innocent Sudanese? 

The media generally will cover what thier readers and viewers are motivated to read, the west has eased its overall position on Palestine but respectfully there's no excuse for 10/7 no matter the Palestinian rationale, from the minds of most Americans, REALITY. Thus most are going to NOT support other Palestinian causes as a result, there's a reason some of the young, naive teens and college-age mistakenly believe every word of Palestinian propaganda. This demographic only exposure to war is Russia/Ukraine where it's obvious who the aggressor is. Israel and Palestine are a much more complex and intricate situation with hundreds of years of history and the always-emotional religious component. It would be completely naive to believe we could snap our fingers and have a Palestinian state inserted into 2024 Israel and it be a peaceful and violent free transition. 

I also said virtually all sources have biases, just as we both do, based on our life experiences, no more no less. 

All Im suggesting is that if the college protests were supposed to change Western opinions they did a poor job, considering most protesters have no clue what river and sea the chant refers to it's hard to follow or respect those "intelligent and educated" opinions. Especially when most of thier news comes from suspect TikToc videos and unvetted social media posts. 

It seems in this thread at least we have reached a point of diminishing returns. The GP is always subject to thier respective governments, TPTB media influence but atleast in America we can discuss both sides even if we disagree vehemently. Therein lies the difference America we can disagree, have different opinions and discuss them, while in other parts of the world political opposition, people of different, religious persuasions and sexual attitudes get tossed off 15 story buildings or get stoned to death, not even going to get into other basic human rights violations

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bbc/

• Overall, we rate the BBC Left-Center biased based on story selection that slightly favors the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing of information. Although they have failed a fact-check, they appropriately issued a correction.
  

---

Detailed ReportBias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: United Kingdom
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: TV Station
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-ea...39975?quot

 

What is Hamas and why is it fighting Israel?Hamas became the sole ruler of Gaza after violently ejecting political rivals in 2007.
It has an armed wing and was thought to have about 30,000 fighters before the start of the war.
The group, whose name stands for Islamic Resistance Movement, wants to create an Islamic state in place of Israel. Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and is committed to its destruction.Hamas justified its attack as a response to what it calls Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people.
These include security raids on Islam's third holiest site - the al-Aqsa Mosque, in occupied East Jerusalem - and Jewish settlement activity in the occupied West Bank.
 Hamas also wants thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israel to be freed and for an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt - something both countries say is for security.

It has fought several wars with Israel since it took power, fired thousands of rockets and carried out many other deadly attacks.Israel has repeatedly attacked Hamas with air strikes and sent troops into Gaza in 2008 and 2014.
Hamas, or in some cases its armed wing alone, is considered a terrorist group by Israel, the US, the EU, and the UK, among others.
Iran backs Hamas with funding, weapons and training.

[Kenzo]

I am sorry but that's not true.

Gaza doesn't get coverage.

The Western MSM pushes the Israeli propaganda and the Zionist position.

On this topic they have zero credibility when they try to manufacture a picture that doesn't exist and a consensus that doesn't exist.

Israel is the occupier and it's committing war crimes, ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity. Many say it's committing genocide.
The world isn't having it and most countries have turned against Israel. Spain/Ireland
/Norway/ South Africa, and over 145 countries recognise Palestinian Statehood and many of them are directly accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide.

This whole conflict goes way back .

29 November, 1947 UN General Assembly voted on Resolution 181, adopting a plan to partition the British Mandate into two states, one Jewish, one Arab.

Resolution 181 was emphatically rejected by the local Arab population and the Arab States.

Meanwhile, some 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries after things started heating up.

Resolution 181 confirmed the 1922 recognition by the international community that the Jewish people deserve their own state, a Jewish state, in their historical homeland.

The refusal by the Arab population of the mandate territory to accept Resolution 181 demonstrated that they were not interested in establishing their own state if it meant allowing the existence of a Jewish state. This opposition to acknowledging the right of a Jewish state to exist still lies at the core of the conflict.


It`s the Arab/Palestinian side that has been against the peacefull deal from day 1 .....Sadly no outsiders can turn their head in this, if they are only decicated to be terrorist and destroy Jewish state and kill Jews , it means they will stay in the self-hurting buble as long they want.....it`s the " causality"  of this....action---reaction /  cause and effect.

[putnam6]

This whole conflict goes way back .

29 November, 1947 UN General Assembly voted on Resolution 181, adopting a plan to partition the British Mandate into two states, one Jewish, one Arab.

Resolution 181 was emphatically rejected by the local Arab population and the Arab States.

Meanwhile, some 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries after things started heating up.

Resolution 181 confirmed the 1922 recognition by the international community that the Jewish people deserve their own state, a Jewish state, in their historical homeland.

The refusal by the Arab population of the mandate territory to accept Resolution 181 demonstrated that they were not interested in establishing their own state if it meant allowing the existence of a Jewish state. This opposition to acknowledging the right of a Jewish state to exist still lies at the core of the conflict.


It`s the Arab/Palestinian side that has been against the peacefull deal from day 1 .....Sadly no outsiders can turn their head in this, if they are only decicated to be terrorist and destroy Jewish state and kill Jews , it means they will stay in the self-hurting buble as long they want.....it`s the " causality"  of this....action---reaction /  cause and effect.

Very well put ... 

It would be irresponsible as hell to install a Palestinian state without complete security guarantees for Israel, a security no one can declare or guarantee in the 21st century, because after 10/7 one side still lives in the 17th century in a lot of ways.

It's not much different than how Japan went from fanatical enemies of the US to our strongest ally in the Pacific if not the world. They paid the price and the extremism was tempered tremendously, it took a couple of decades.  Of course every time a leader in the middle east softens their stance on Israel, there is such a blowback in the hyper-religious GP they put thier lives in jeopardy. see Anwar Sadat.