Columbia University has fallen

[putnam6]

No, they should not.  My posture is, the hostage issue needs to be largely resolved first.  If there's some independent outstanding individuals (like 1-2) then perhaps there's some leeway, but short of this, no, there should be no outstanding hostages.

I mostly agree but damn, FCD I got daughters just a little bit older than those women they have refused to release, so far. All the hostges have to be accounted for, it's a completely understandable request.

 
Not sure I understand your question, but I'll try to respond.  Reading between the lines of your question, I interpret it as..."Should Sinwar be allowed to live?".  So, I'll answer accordingly.  If this was not your question, then please clarify.  Answer is as follows:

Sinwar is a terrorist, and Hamas are terrorists.  He should be hunted down like any other known terrorist.  Hamas cannot be part of the negotiations, so what Sinwar does and where he does it, as unfortunate as this is, is a separate matter.

I have no doubt Mossad will track Sinwar's ass down eventually, what I am saying is Hamas needs to out of power, ie that's the elimination of Hamas' key leaders and fighters that is pounding Gaza into the dirt. 

 Israel can have the 1st one; it is not an unreasonable demand.  Israel cannot have the 2nd one unless they do it themselves (alone) and stand to bear the consequences of it (again, alone).  This would be akin to Canada asking the US to go assassinate Putin.  It is not the World's responsibility to clean up the entire planet to Israel's satisfaction before they will agree to come to the bargaining table.  That is unreasonable.  Israel has a really bad habit of throwing one or two impossible prerequisites into anything they don't 'want' to negotiate about.  Sorry, but they can require the first demand, but not the second.  If they want that, then they'll need to go do it themselves and suffer the consequences (all on their own).

So you don't think there ought to be sanctions at the very least on Sinwar and some of the surviving leaders? Im not fine with them counting thier billions Qatar and the US doing nothing. We have sanctioned the hell out of Russia Putin and some of thier business men, how is this different. 
 

Negotiate for what?  Both Israel and the Palestinians have legal standing for territory in Mandatory Palestine.  I am not aware of any other group in the region who have this standing.  Therefore, there's nothing for them to negotiate for.  They either become Israelis or Palestinians, or they leave.

Missed my point, if you bend over and give the the Palestinians statehood so soon after 10/7. What's to keep ISIS or Boko Harem or any other terrorist or criminal group from doing copy cat kidnapping, to get ransoms, or more. Just like airlines had so many copy cat highjackers of planes in the 70s. Not to mention a soverign Palestinian statehood within greater Israel would put the average Israeli under more of a daily threat than they already are, Palestinians too for that matter. 

as for the legalities who attacked who leading to the need to for occupation to begin with, remove 1948 and 1967 lost wars and the Palestinians might already have thier statehood. 
Excellent question.  Well, this has happened, more than once actually, not exactly like that, but the Iran hostage crisis was one example, and the Grenada incident was another.  But in direct answer to your question, the response would likely be a surgical rescue operation to free the hostages and kill as many of their directly involved captors as possible.  More directly, the answer would NOT be to invade Mexico and take over the country (which is effectively what Netanyahu is doing).  BTW...this was a great question!  Well thought up and constructed.  It provides an excellent platform to not only answer your question, but to also draw parallels to current situation.

Im aware of the Iranian Hostage situation and hell I had friends you were in Grenada. Respectfully those don't come close to 10/7 

I can count off the ways if need be. 

How many civilians soldiers or police were killed and raped in both Iran and Grenada?

On top of the cartel has an estimated 175,000 current members and support. 

If we are going to parallel the situation in Gaza, where would we send the Special Forces rescue mission too? What if the cartel stormed El Paso killing thousands,kidnapping hundreds, and taking them back across the border in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua? It has a population of 1.3 million BTW

How long before the cartel starts to hide behind the innocent Mexicans, just like Gaza separating the two will be difficult. Special Forces couldn't even trust the local police

I'd imagine they could hide the hostages in thier drug tunnels or with the sympathetic or intimidated public, I'd also imagine the cartel would have no problem offing any hostages as soon as they knew an operation was on the way. As well as buy off or intimidate so they could hold them forever, perhaps getting incarcerated members out of jail in Mexico and elsewhere. 

Then what... 

[FlyingClayDisk]

Then what... 

I am going to try to summarize several points here because it's getting too busy for line item responses.  I am going to summarize what I think you're getting at in a broader sense, distill it down, and then respond to it.

1. How can the world let Sinwar and Hamas get away seemingly scott free and still negotiate with Israel and the Palestinians?   Sinwar and Hamas need (heavily) to be punished first.

Response - This is a fundamental point; you have to accept the Palestinians (in total) do not equal Hamas.  I know this is hard, but there is no, repeat zero, hope of a solution short of eradication of all Palestinians by Israel if people refuse to differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinians.  Just zero.  There is absolutely no solution possible.  So, if this is Netanyahu's position, then he might as well get on with it; officially declare war on the balance of Mandatory Palestine, tell the world his intentions, and then set about laying all non-Israeli controlled territory to waste.  This is the "Kill them all" solution.  (This solution will make a couple members here very happy, tragic and twisted as that is).  There is no other solution than this if Netanyahu refuses to differentiate between the two people.  Period.

Now, that said, what to do about Sinwar and Hamas(?)  As I have said (tirelessly), Hamas are terrorists.  Sinwar is their leader; he is also a terrorist.  The Sinwar/Hamas issue is a separate matter and needs to be dealt with separately.  I have already outlined how you separate Hamas from the Palestinians, so I'm not going to type all that again.  I have also laid out the absolute conditions for Palestinian participation in the negotiated settlement between Israel (so I'm not going to type that again either).  The Palestinians go one way to the negotiating table, and Hamas goes the other way to whatever depraved, disgusting, hole they crawled out of, AND they get pursued like the terrorist dogs they are to the ends of the Earth...and they get exterminated. However, this can not be a prerequisite to negotiations.  Release of the hostages, yes, but eradication of Hamas, no, this will require more time, and delaying negotiations with this expectation is just a ruse for not negotiating at all.

2. What keeps other terror organizations from hijacking other parts of the world and holding people hostages so they get the same deal?

Response - This is a several part answer, and this is also a straw man (I don't care for straw men).  First, you have to understand the difference between Mandatory Palestine, the original players and all these other groups you refer to.  Per the 1948 UN Resolution (yes, the Arabs didn't sign it, but this is irrelevant because this situation is not why), only Irsrael and the Palestinians were outlined in this document (hence the name).  None of the other terrorist organizations you've noted had any involvement or claim in this document.  The UN Resolution covers a finite territorial area, and includes a finite number of peoples/religions/cultures. 

Second, any similar action by these other groups you note would be considered an outright declaration of war on any country they tried to pull a stunt like that and they would be retaliated against, rightfully so, and vaporized.  Two completely different situations, and that's all the further I am going to go speculating about straw men (all due respect). 

3. Surgical Rescue/Strike missions (in other countries like Mexico) would be impossible.

Response - This is another straw man.  The odds would be tall, yes (in some generic other country, not Mexico.  However, this is the only option short of officially declaring War on the host country.  Just like Israel and the Palestinians, those are the only two options.  (I'll get to Mexico in particular in a moment)

4. What about Mexico?

Response - Okay, Mexico in particular has far too large of a vested economic interest from the U.S. to ever allow something like you suggest to happen.  The economic impact alone would turn Mexico into Sudan.  So a Hamas-like terror invasion and hostage event coming from Mexico would not happen.  And, the reason it wouldn't happen is because both the U.S. AND Mexico (regardless how corrupt and begrudging) would quickly, and jointly, stomp something like that out of existence.  Plus, Mexico doesn't surround the U.S..  Thirdly, because there is a defined and undisputed border between Mexico and the USA (despite appearing to be swiss cheese) any such invasion by Mexico would be a clear Act of War, thus the Mexican government would either have to sanction it, or fix it...like overnight!  This would never happen.

5. Final thoughts (by me)

You've asked a flurry of questions, and I have tried to answer them honestly.  We can go through "what if?" arguments until we both grow old, but they are straw men.  I have tried to respond directly to the Palestinian / Israel crises with the bulk of these responses and/or comparisons in context.

Lastly, I have tried to demonstrate through my answers that there is not a 5 minute solution to the Israeli / Palestinian conflict, and I have tried to do this with due-diligence in honest and non-confrontational responses both for you and others who may read this.  Please understand that the finest points of detail cannot possibly be covered on a forum like this, but at least the general framework can be discussed.  The other thing which is important to keep in mind is two general things:
1. It is unrealistic for Israel to expect the entire globe to reach utopian perfection on every single issue before they should be asked and/or be willing to come to the bargaining table.  And,..
2. It is unrealistic for the Palestinians, the Israelis or anyone, else to accept anything less than universal condemnation of Hamas as a terror organization who should be hunted down and brought to bear for their crimes against humanity.  And, any and all parties who sit at any negotiating table for territory and/or statehood in Mandatory Palestine need to publicly ratify and publicly condemn Hamas.  There can be no exceptions.

Hopefully you can accept this as my reply.  I'm worn out.

[Notran]

The hostage issue must be resolved immediately on both sides.

That said, it's not only Hamas that has hostages. Israel has been detaining without trials thousands of political prisoners and thousands of ordinary Palestinians over the years. Even to this point in time.

Ita an occupying force of an open air prison or concentration camp, you can use any expression you want. The latter I think came from Dr Finkelstein who is a Jewish intellectual and academic and highly critical of the Zionist regime and Zionism as a political movement.

Israel is an apartheid state and it's not a coincidence South Africa accuding them of genocide and various other crimes.

They know very well what is to be living under an apartheid regime where one group of people have been continuously dehumanised. The prerequisite to the war crimes committed against them and genocide.

With reference to the thread I made on Julian Assagne, I am sure if he was around in the last few months, wikileaks would be busy with what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank. Just as he exposed the war crimes commited by the US he cound easily expose the war crimes committed by Israel. There is so much material ready for him and others who expose all sorts of crimes and wrongdoings but on the other hand most of them hwve been exposed despite the zionist lobby and their buddies on MSM trying to cover them up.

[putnam6]

First of all, FCD Im just discussing this, It's not a matter of me accepting anything it's called a discussion. I have no problem with the thread morphing into the broader Israeli/Palestinian question but, suffice it to say there is plenty of straw being strewn in this thread. 

Im not making wild proclamations all Im doing is bringing the discourse on the topic Ive seen elsewhere to Deny Ignorance and discuss with people who mostly want to hear their opinions. These types of informative discussions are no longer possible in other places. No more no less. 

It is not my intention to irritate you or get you worn out over this, this isn't Im right about your wrong situation, I value your opinion even if I disagree on some points. Im not trying to change anybody's mind all the while Im open that I could be wrong. 

So respectively here are my responses 

The article below was just from December, certainly not all Palestinians actively support Hamas, but enough do that it's a real threat to Israel. Thats the REALITY of whether it's acceptable to anybody

Unless one prescribes to any means necessary argument, which tries to rationalize and validate 10/7. This attitude is prevalent across our campuses and definitely in the Middle East.

Respectfully there was no way Israel could have sent SF units to find the hostages and rescue them, without incurring huge losses specifically because ENOUGH Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas which makes it dangerous as hell for a limited and surgical operation. 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-...3844bc4514
 Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign 

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — A wartime opinion poll among Palestinians published Wednesday shows a rise in support for Hamas, which appears to have ticked up even in the devastated Gaza Strip, and an overwhelming rejection of Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas, with nearly 90% saying he must resign.
The findings by a Palestinian pollster signal more difficulties ahead for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s stated goal of ending Hamas’ military and governing capabilities.
Washington has called for the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority, currently led by Abbas, to eventually assume control of Gaza and run both territories as a precursor to statehood. U.S. officials have said the PA must be revitalized, without letting on whether this would mean leadership changes.
The PA administers pockets of the Israeli-occupied West Bank and has governed Gaza until a takeover by Hamas militants in 2007. The Palestinians have not held elections since 2006 when Hamas won a parliamentary majority.

 
Here's another more recent article..

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...024-06-13/Poll shows rise in support by Palestinians for armed struggle

RAMALLAH, West Bank, June 13 (Reuters) - Support for armed struggle as the best means to end Israeli occupation and achieve statehood rose among Palestinians while backing for the militant group Hamas also increased slightly in the last three months, according to an opinion poll.
The poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) showed support for armed struggle climbed by 8 percentage points to 54% of those surveyed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Support for Hamas rose by 6 percentage points to 40%. Fatah, led by President Mahmoud Abbas, had 20% backing.

I was under the impression that Mandatory Palestine was rejected by the Arab population in 1948, thus the problem. 

but it's this quote that concerns me, it skews the reality that all sides the Palestinians and Hamas including both routinely deploy delaying tactics, misrepresentations, and outright lies.  

Want it to end?  release the hostages, Im sure plenty of Palestinians know exactly where they are.

We can argue a percentage are scared or intimidated, but not all. Respectfully if it's 10% that's 230,000 Palestinians celebrating 10/7 too the extreme. 

Much like the Palestinians in UNRWA not all were complicit but enough are that it seriously hinders any semblance of what it's supposed to accomplish in Gaza. The same goes for whatever percentage of Palestinians support Hamas, all those tunnels from Rafah to Egypt weren't going to the Bedouin, somebody was supporting Hamas from Egypt, are they part of the negotiations? 

RESPECTFULLY sure it can, which side has stalled negotiations more since October? hell Ive seen Israel accept proposals recently where Hamas pulled back. 

However, this can not be a prerequisite to negotiations.  Release of the hostages, yes, but eradication of Hamas, no, this will require more time, and delaying negotiations with this expectation is just a ruse for not negotiating at all.

Ive got more a little more

such as snap your fingers BOOM the Palestinians have complete autonomy in the 1948 Mandatory Palestine what happens with Israel? Let's not pretend Jews are assimilated into Arab countries even close to the degree Muslims are assimilated in Israel. So we negotiate and are we supposed to naively believe there won't be terroristic attacks once the Palestinian statehood is established, and the inevitable Israeli responses? 

here's where I do get stuck and I can't get past it FCD

If you think you are worn out imagine the parents of these women, it's hard for a father in me to get past this. Id Ross Perot this shit if my daughter was left behind for Pally statehood negotiations, at least the Iranians didn't do this yes some of the women were soldiers, but it's still no excuse or rationale to violate the Geneva Convention if you want to be recognized with statehood. None, zero, zip, nada. 

How do you negotiate with that while it's still occurring?  

Im of the opinion Hamas had no idea that 10/7 would garner them so many captives, one reason they had to hide them with UN Doctors and according to your posts ordinary Palestinians. That 10% 250,000 approximately seems to be complicit. 

https://nypost.com/2024/06/14/world-news...tive-says/

The mother of a female Israeli soldier being held captive by Hamas says one of the freed hostages told her that her daughter and the other kidnapped women had been used as slaves to serve the terrorists inside luxury villas.
Shira Albag, whose 19-year-old daughter Liri Albag was kidnapped on Oct. 7, said she spoke to newly rescued hostage Noa Argamani to learn about what her daughter was going through, the Times of Israel reports.
“Noa said that they were slaves, and so were the [female soldiers], including Liri,” Shira said in a statement. “They cleaned the yard, did dishes and prepared food that they were not allowed to eat.

Liri and the four other female soldiers featured in the video are among the some 120 hostages who remain in Gaza more than eight months into the war.
While Israel believes that more than 70 of the hostages are alive, Osama Hamdan, a top Hamas official, claimed Thursday that “no one has any idea” how many hostages are still alive.

---

The hostage issue must be resolved immediately on both sides.

That said, it's not only Hamas that has hostages. Israel has been detaining without trials thousands of political prisoners and thousands of ordinary Palestinians over the years. Even to this point in time.

Ita an occupying force of an open air prison or concentration camp, you can use any expression you want. The latter I think came from Dr Finkelstein who is a Jewish intellectual and academic and highly critical of the Zionist regime and Zionism as a political movement.

Israel is an apartheid state and it's not a coincidence South Africa accuding them of genocide and various other crimes.

They know very well what is to be living under an apartheid regime where one group of people have been continuously dehumanised. The prerequisite to the war crimes committed against them and genocide.

With reference to the thread I made on Julian Assagne, I am sure if he was around in the last few months, wikileaks would be busy with what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank. Just as he exposed the war crimes commited by the US he cound easily expose the war crimes committed by Israel. There is so much material ready for him and others who expose all sorts of crimes and wrongdoings but on the other hand most of them hwve been exposed despite the zionist lobby and their buddies on MSM trying to cover them up.

So tell me again about luxury car dealerships in open-air prisons and concentration camps? Hell Ive seen worse suffering in Mississippi and scarier places in New Orleans, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, DC, and Philly and Chicago.

[Video: https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=cicEEAPaG0EaPvda]


[Video: https://youtu.be/ZQnzHNZojcw?si=TglFJlzIgZXb457F]

[putnam6]

I'd say the majority of America feels the same way....

Tired of the bullshit protests

https://x.com/GOPIsrael/status/1806165650018111703


and here is a message from 

Loay Alshareef لؤي الشريف
@lalshareef
·Jun 14


I am proud that I stood against the atrocities of Oct 7 from day one. I know there is a price to pay, but I have zero regrets. I defeated radical Islamism with knowledge and a kind heart, two prerequisites that Islamists lack. Peace between Arabs and Israelis will prevail.

https://x.com/lalshareef/status/1806006961110130852

he stated about the recent Russian attack it's all driven by hate, hate of the Jews and the Christians. How is it Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates see this, can process this, and come up with the solution that hate speech allows these emotions to boil over into rage?

 Ive said all along in this thread these are paid protests you get paid 30 bucks an hour

That is nothing like the organic  60s and 70s protests

[Notran]

First of all, FCD Im just discussing this, It's not a matter of me accepting anything it's called a discussion. I have no problem with the thread morphing into the broader Israeli/Palestinian question but, suffice it to say there is plenty of straw being strewn in this thread. 

Im not making wild proclamations all Im doing is bringing the discourse on the topic Ive seen elsewhere to Deny Ignorance and discuss with people who mostly want to hear their opinions. These types of informative discussions are no longer possible in other places. No more no less. 

It is not my intention to irritate you or get you worn out over this, this isn't Im right about your wrong situation, I value your opinion even if I disagree on some points. Im not trying to change anybody's mind all the while Im open that I could be wrong. 

So respectively here are my responses 

The article below was just from December, certainly not all Palestinians actively support Hamas, but enough do that it's a real threat to Israel. Thats the REALITY of whether it's acceptable to anybody

Unless one prescribes to any means necessary argument, which tries to rationalize and validate 10/7. This attitude is prevalent across our campuses and definitely in the Middle East.

Respectfully there was no way Israel could have sent SF units to find the hostages and rescue them, without incurring huge losses specifically because ENOUGH Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas which makes it dangerous as hell for a limited and surgical operation. 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-...3844bc4514
 Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign 
 
Here's another more recent article..

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...024-06-13/Poll shows rise in support by Palestinians for armed struggle

I was under the impression that Mandatory Palestine was rejected by the Arab population in 1948, thus the problem. 

but it's this quote that concerns me, it skews the reality that all sides the Palestinians and Hamas including both routinely deploy delaying tactics, misrepresentations, and outright lies.  

Want it to end?  release the hostages, Im sure plenty of Palestinians know exactly where they are.

We can argue a percentage are scared or intimidated, but not all. Respectfully if it's 10% that's 230,000 Palestinians celebrating 10/7 too the extreme. 

Much like the Palestinians in UNRWA not all were complicit but enough are that it seriously hinders any semblance of what it's supposed to accomplish in Gaza. The same goes for whatever percentage of Palestinians support Hamas, all those tunnels from Rafah to Egypt weren't going to the Bedouin, somebody was supporting Hamas from Egypt, are they part of the negotiations? 

RESPECTFULLY sure it can, which side has stalled negotiations more since October? hell Ive seen Israel accept proposals recently where Hamas pulled back. 

Ive got more a little more

such as snap your fingers BOOM the Palestinians have complete autonomy in the 1948 Mandatory Palestine what happens with Israel? Let's not pretend Jews are assimilated into Arab countries even close to the degree Muslims are assimilated in Israel. So we negotiate and are we supposed to naively believe there won't be terroristic attacks once the Palestinian statehood is established, and the inevitable Israeli responses? 

here's where I do get stuck and I can't get past it FCD

If you think you are worn out imagine the parents of these women, it's hard for a father in me to get past this. Id Ross Perot this shit if my daughter was left behind for Pally statehood negotiations, at least the Iranians didn't do this yes some of the women were soldiers, but it's still no excuse or rationale to violate the Geneva Convention if you want to be recognized with statehood. None, zero, zip, nada. 

How do you negotiate with that while it's still occurring?  

Im of the opinion Hamas had no idea that 10/7 would garner them so many captives, one reason they had to hide them with UN Doctors and according to your posts ordinary Palestinians. That 10% 250,000 approximately seems to be complicit. 

https://nypost.com/2024/06/14/world-news...tive-says/

---

So tell me again about luxury car dealerships in open-air prisons and concentration camps? Hell Ive seen worse suffering in Mississippi and scarier places in New Orleans, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, DC, and Philly and Chicago.

[Video: https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=cicEEAPaG0EaPvda]


[Video: https://youtu.be/ZQnzHNZojcw?si=TglFJlzIgZXb457F]

I don't understand what you're trying to say I am afraid. What luxury car dealerships??

I do understand you don't have much to say and you left without good arguments to counter my post.

If you want to get an understanding on what is to live in an open air prison/concentration camp then you must listen to the interviews by Norman Flinkenstein who is a Jewish intellectual and among the many Jewish who accuse Israel of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

Perhaps you should listen Jewish people all over the world who condemn the government of Israel, the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and the war crimes commited by Israel.

It could be it's inconvenient for your narrative, I get this. But I don't understand what you're trying to do. Are you trying to whitewash the crimes commited by Israel?

Israel is to get investigated for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and possibly genocide.

Everyone stands against atrocities (most people to be precise). But if you can't see and realise Israel is an occupying force committing war crimes and crimes against humanity then you should ask yourself why is it you are resistant and can't accept the facts.

[putnam6]

I don't understand what you're trying to say I am afraid. What luxury car dealerships??

I do understand you don't have much to say and you left without good arguments to counter my post.

If you want to get an understanding on what is to live in an open air prison/concentration camp then you must listen to the interviews by Norman Finkenstein who is a Jewish intellectual and among the many Jewish who accuse Israel of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

Perhaps you should listen Jewish people all over the world who condemn the government of Israel, the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and the war crimes commited by Israel.

It could be it's inconvenient for your narrative, I get this. But I don't understand what you're trying to do. Are you trying to whitewash the crimes commited by Israel?

Israel is to get investigated for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and possibly genocide.

Everyone stands against atrocities (most people to be precise). But if you can't see and realise Israel is an occupying force committing war crimes and crimes against humanity then you should ask yourself why is it you are resistant and can't accept the facts.

Im afraid you didn't watch the videos, if you did you would know WTH was the luxury car dealership my post referred to. FWIW it is listed at the address on GoogleMaps Gaza City look it up I did. https://maps.app.goo.gl/rrytcBU6erbzdtfi7


Directly below other independent sources of corroborative evidence 

https://x.com/arunpudur/status/1715986368244154840
https://x.com/arunpudur/status/1715986711300517995



Respectfully if you ask me to read something, you really ought to atleast glance at the videos. Especially if you are going to absently comment about them. 

BTW below is the Camera on Campus blog thoughts about Norman Finklestein, amazingly from an ON topic source some may or may not peruse at thier immediate or later leisure, before commenting.

But here is a quote you can't ignore.
 

In a July 2020 online discussion, Finkelstein referred to Holocaust denier David Irving as "a very good historian." This statement has further fueled the controversy surrounding Finkelstein's views on the Holocaust.

https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/what-nor...an-misery/
 
remember Grasshopper a picture is worth 1000 words 

 One link below is One Motor's opening of a luxury car dealership in Gaza in 2023, for context, they also have a dealership in Dubai

the other video is walking through the streets of Gaza I think it's 2022, but the point remains it is not an open-air prison and looks relatively prosperous, vibrant and safer than most cities in the Middle East

Watch the videos and if you still don't understand why I question Gaza being described as an open-air prison or concentration camp,I don't know how to explain it further. Visually there's enough to make educated guesses

 Otherwise, the assertions of open-air prisons are so hyperbolic they taint one's credibility and completely hinder having meaningful discourse and dialog.

WALKING IN GAZA, PALESTINE 

[Video: https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=cicEEAPaG0EaPvda]

Luxury car dealership opens in Gaza does Norman Finkelstein think open-air prisons have those

[Video: https://youtu.be/ZQnzHNZojcw?si=TglFJlzIgZXb457F]

more a stroll through Gaza 3 years ago, sounds like Norman Finkelstein wouldn't do that but the lady in the vid well

[Video: https://youtu.be/-3sx1vkPqR8?si=5A82m6OFZlqHdC7U]

 Gaza restaurant offers a taste of the Maldives to Palestinians, just like they serve in prisons

[Video: https://youtu.be/Ma7nOOfYwM4?si=c7mJwwm2H2r22rMy]

Gazan Woman opens an affordable hamburger shop in Gaza, damn those look like tasty burgers...says Jules Winnfield 

[Video: https://youtu.be/vqrKrwjAugc?si=-R-0bendDpfc5XwM]

[putnam6]

A look at the billions of dollars in foreign aid to Gaza

If they still have an open-air prison respectfully it's because Hamas' leadership wants it that way

https://apnews.com/article/business-midd...9f4fae6a90

Here’s a look at the main forms of international aid to Gaza:
— From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone. More than 80% of that funding is channeled through the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, who make up three-fourths of Gaza’s population. Some 280,000 children in Gaza attend schools run by UNRWA, which also provides health services and food aid.
— Qatar has provided $1.3 billion in aid to Gaza since 2012 for construction, health services and agriculture. That includes $360 million pledged in January for 2021 and another $500 million pledged for reconstruction after the war in May. Qatar’s aid also goes to needy families and to help pay Hamas government salaries.
 
— The Palestinian Authority says it will spend $1.7 billion on Gaza this year, mainly on salaries for tens of thousands of civil servants who stopped working when Hamas took over in 2007.

— Egypt pledged $500 million in aid after the May war, but it’s unclear how much has materialized. It sent construction crews to clear rubble over the summer.— Germany and other European countries will spend nearly 70 million euros ($80 million) on water projects in Gaza this year, in addition to their contributions to UNRWA.
— The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.
— Israel is granting work permits to 10,000 Gazans who undergo security vetting, providing a crucial source of income for families with no known connection to Hamas.

Here's another link back to the original topic for some posters to not watch at all... 

https://x.com/__Jewish__/status/1807059103623102628

[putnam6]

He isn't wrong... if Hamas stopped international pressure would force Israel to stop, IF they didn't stop on thier own.



https://x.com/EYakoby/status/1807432414668468656


Angela Van Der Pluym reposted

Eyal Yakoby
Earlier today, Hamas put out this video titled “our preparation is continuing.” If you want a ceasefire and peace, these are the people blocking it from happening. P.S. the flag in the back of the video is the same as the ones displayed in NYC.