What to do about the 9 percent without American pride

[UltraBudgie]

This is a case of existential crisis that I mentioned in another thread. Collective punishment of an identity group because of the actions of some.

Conative dissonance. Hey American, do you have a representative government? "Yes!" Well how are they doing? "Horrible, they're all liars and thieves with no morality!"

I am convinced most psych drugs are not to treat underlying problems, but to paper over potential moral damage. Live life on the surface, avoid introspection. The amount of things you have to ignore or not think about as an American is staggering.

The most propagandized people in the world.

[Halfswede]

Conative dissonance. Hey American, do you have a representative government? "Yes!" Well how are they doing? "Horrible, they're all liars and thieves with no morality!"

I am convinced most psych drugs are not to treat underlying problems, but to paper over potential moral damage. Live life on the surface, avoid introspection. The amount of things you have to ignore or not think about as an American is staggering.

The most propagandized people in the world.

You are right in a sense, IMO.  However, there is hard propaganda like you find in true authoritarian regimes, and soft propaganda which is just constant half-truths and obfuscation. In the former, they just prevent you from ever seeing alternative veiwpoints, talking about alternative viewpoint or seeking the truth, and tell you what you sort of 'have to' beleive by default. In the latter, they give you the pretense that all of the truth and facts are available, free to talk about, and that there are a multitude of venues disseminating the "truth", so how could 'it' be lies and 'they' be lying. 

However, the soft propaganda is harder to expose to the masses because there is already the belief that they are part of a free society and wouldn't be lied to.  In the hard propaganda societies, even just below the surface the people know they are being lied to and controlled. In the US and other places full of soft propaganda, the average citizen truly doesn't believe it's possible that authorities would lie, present biased information, foment dis-info and mis-info, etc. It really is a mess.

The US, Europe, etc (the west) is definitely extremely propagandized, but almost in a more despicable way -- harder to uncover and resist.

[Bootless]

I am convinced most psych drugs are not to treat underlying problems, but to paper over potential moral damage. Live life on the surface, avoid introspection. The amount of things you have to ignore or not think about as an American is staggering.

The most propagandized people in the world.

There's self medication, alcohol and such.
Here's another longer passage, the store clerk talking to the town drunk. They're the same age, grew up together:

“I know. I mean I don’t know, but I believe you.” I gave him a dollar
bill. “Will that do it?”

His lips were trembling the way a child’s lips do when it’s about to
cry. “Thank you, Eth,” he said. “Yes—that will put me away all day and
maybe all night.” He began to look better just thinking of it.

“Danny—you’ve got to stop this. Think I’ve forgotten? You were my
brother, Danny. You still are. I’ll do anything in the world to help
you.”

A little color came into his thin cheeks. He looked at the money in his
hand and it was as though he had taken his first gulp of skull-buster.
Then he looked at me with hard cold eyes.

“In the first place it’s nobody’s goddam business. And in the second
place you haven’t got a bean, Eth. You’re as blind as I am, only it’s a
different kind of blindness.”

“Listen to me, Danny.”

“What for? Why, I’m better off than you are. I’ve got my ace in the
hole. Remember our country place?”

“Where the house burned down? Where we used to play in the cellar hole?”

“You remember it all right. It’s mine.”

“Danny, you could sell it and get a new start.”

“I won’t sell it. The county takes a little bit of it for taxes every
year. The big meadow is still mine.”

“Why won’t you sell it?”

“Because it’s me. It’s Daniel Taylor. Long as I have it no Christy sons
of bitches can tell me what to do and no bastards can lock me up for my
own good. Do you get it?”

“Listen, Danny—”

“I won’t listen. If you think this dollar gives you the right to preach
to me—here! Take it back.”

“Keep it.”

“I will. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’ve never been
a drunk. I don’t tell you how to wrap bacon do I? Now if you’ll go your
own way, I’ll knock on a window and get some skull-buster. And don’t
forget, I’m better off than you are. I’m not a clerk.” He turned around
and put his head in the corner of the closed doorway like a child who
abolishes the world by looking away from it. And he stayed there until I
gave up and walked on.

Well I'm not aware of too many songs, but I have a mental list of a few. Sometimes I envy shallowness. Sometimes I just read deep children's books.



Edie Brickell & New Bohemians - What I Am

[Bootless]

I think the "Us against Them" mentality is just becoming obsolete.

The younger generation today is "born" connected to the entire world.  They don't see the division.

I do think they see the inequality in the world.  Global humanity and natural resources as more important that where your feet touch the ground at birth.

I was planning on resisting watching any of the Kirk memorial but just had to peek. The "Us against Them" seems quite alive in Steven Miller. His speech could have come right out of the mouth of Richard B. Spencer, the no apologies neo-Nazi.



Stephen Miller delivers heated remarks at Charlie Kirk's memorial service: 'We are the storm'

I hope you are correct about the younger generation.

As Roger Murtaugh said, "I'm getting too old for this shit."

[chr0naut]

American Pride Slips to New Low Pride among Democrats tumbles, while independents also hit new low, more than offsetting increase among Republicans JUNE 30, 2025 Gallup

It all started for me in 1993 as I watched the Texas National Guard supplied armored personnel vehicles ram the wooden side of the Branch Davidian building in East Texas.
[Image: https://denyignorance.com/uploader/image...andoff.jpg]

The Stars and Stripes proudly mounted on the APV, waving in the breeze pumping internationally banned chemical agents into the holes made by the ramming.

So if that was done by the U.S. then it was done by me and for me, right? But I didn't ask for that. It was without my consent. I met some of those Branch Davidians back in '75; nice people, very much like myself.

I had no concern that if they were left alone that I would die in some nationwide terror attack. No them or me about it. But there I was doing it. Not that I was there, but we all saw it live on TV.

That was a major identity crisis for me. Something about identifying with both sides.

Then the Congressional Hearing; FBI assault leader laughing while describing the hundreds of canisters shot through windows.
-----
I'll spare you from the part later when I had a co-worker whose sister worked at the Oklahoma Federal Building, with kids in the day care. It's just that I had previously shown her the letter I had written to my Congressman. So she knew that I had less than wonderful thoughts about the government.
-------
Fast forward, Sept 11,2001. At least that didn't involve me killing my fellow Americans.

But then, "You're either with us, or you're with the Terrorists", and the bombing of food trucks and Red Cross food storage facilities began. And the wedding gatherings, and the funerals. And there was that Presidentially declared binary choice hanging over my head again.

It broke me like being drawn and quartered (whatever the binary form of that is), pulled in half.

What could I do? 
Protest, Sign the Not In Our Name Pledge of Resistance 

And now the U.S. is doing genocide, supplying weapons, vetoing UN Security Council resolution demanding ceasefire and massive humanitarian aid. This phrase of the pledge is quite apropos:

"letting history take its course
over the graves of the nameless"

While we Americans are presented a huge stadium sized memorial for one American probably killed by another American. And a day set aside to memorialize him.

So what will I do now?

I think I'll read the John Steinbeck book The Winter of Our Discontent. I haven't read it yet. And I did see John Steinbeck once while camping in one of those California Redwood forests. My dad talked to him.

That's something anyway, whilst I await the hangman.

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUPt7UIxHK4]
Styx | Renegade (Lyrics)

I believe that attitudes about national pride are very changeable and are most rapidly changing in the grassroots of the US people.

It is becoming clear that while Trump is delivering a lot of what he said he would, that this has not had the effects that the most ardent of MAGA supporters had hoped.

He is tarnished by his failures, such as not quickly ending conflicts, like he bragged, and by loosing the moral high ground over his close association with Epstein at the time of the height of Epstein's crimes. And over his not revealing the client list, despite saying he would.

Plus, of course, people are waking up to the way he deflects, throwing up smokescreen unrelated points, whenever he is put on the spot, usually implying that someone else, somewhere else, is worse than he is, but never actually addressing his culpability.

And there's this:

U.S. GDP Growth Rate, especially in the light of the rising CPI (everything is getting more expensive despite the USA, in total, earning less than it did).

In an environment of falling crime rates, he calls in the military.

In an environment of falling trade balance, he cripples it further by applying unreasonable tariffs (if you want to increase sales, you don't put up the price of everything).

And there is also the vindictiveness of nearly everything he says. At some point, people will tire of hearing lies and nastiness all the time.

[UltraBudgie]

I was planning on resisting watching any of the Kirk memorial but just had to peek. The "Us against Them" seems quite alive in Steven Miller.

Seems strangely familiar. Didn't I see this on an episode of The Office?

[Bootless]

Seems strangely familiar. Didn't I see this on an episode of The Office?

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYyZqlyDEL4]

ROFL

Back to the cognitive dissonance.
I watched Trump's speech, it was "...and he pushed for censorship and upholding free speech..."

The biggy is the fundamental incompatibility of the U.S. Constitutional Liberal Democracy with Biblical Monarchical government. They are illegal to each other. They just cannot mesh. It's one or the other.

Back when I didn't know better I used to apologize for Christianity, because at least in the New Testament Canon there is no explicit command for Christians to kill people for any reason.

If Jesus had come back, if not in his own generation as he said, but at least like within three generations there would have been no problem. As the scripture says "in the World, but not of the World" and "our citizenship is in heaven". See? No conflict over World rule with the then Powers That Be.

But now? The Church is in the World and of the World, and therefore in conflict (war) over World domination.

Miller is all "We built it! We did it! You did nothing! You can't do anything!" Let's see Athens, Greek, not Judeo and not Christian. Rome, not Judeo, not Christian, until Christianity became Worldly, then the Dark Ages. Renaissance was making pre-Christian Roman Civilization Great Again. That brought Enlightenment, which brought the concept of Liberal Democracy, and hence the United States.

Human civilization is not the product of Judean or Christian religion. It just isn't.

I wish Christians could get back to the idea of just passing through this World rather than ruling it.


This World Is Not My Home

[UltraBudgie]

I wish Christians could get back to the idea of just passing through this World rather than ruling it.

Being more concerned with spiritual matters does not mean ignoring the evils of the world and not calling out lies or hypocrisy. That wasn't what Jesus exemplified, in my interpretation. I wonder how many of the "good Christians" in that audience thought Miller was "one of them". He's not. You think he's not aware of the image his skinhead look projects, and what people assume? He obviously is, if you have eyes to see it. He's weaponized it.

Anyway that conative dissonance is no longer obscured at all, to a growing portion of the population. The political and social landscape in America has become not a matter of truth, but rather a matter of what liebubble of acceptable bullshit you choose to exist in. And it's by no means clear that any are more "truthy" than the others. Or less evil.

It's difficult to have "pride" in such a thing. Much better to look at the beautiful natural wonders such as the redwoods, grand canyon, great lakes, national forests, colorado river and have pride in that. Or the kindhearted generous people of all stripes one will encounter, if we stop letting liebubbles dictate the limits of our perception. One can have pride in that, I suppose—humanity is amazing, in America and elsewhere.

[ANNEE]

The "Us against Them" seems quite alive in Steven Miller. His speech could have come right out of the mouth of Richard B. Spencer, the no apologies neo-Nazi.

Somewhere in my internet travels came across someone who grew up and went to school with Steven Miller.

There was not a shred of kindly remembrance.

[chr0naut]

ROFL

Back to the cognitive dissonance.
I watched Trump's speech, it was "...and he pushed for censorship and upholding free speech..."

A rather obvious contradiction!

Indicative of the ingrained Orwellian doublethink of the 'radically Conservative' untelligensia, i suppose. LOL.

The biggy is the fundamental incompatibility of the U.S. Constitutional Liberal Democracy with Biblical Monarchical government. They are illegal to each other. They just cannot mesh. It's one or the other.

Back when I didn't know better I used to apologize for Christianity, because at least in the New Testament Canon there is no explicit command for Christians to kill people for any reason.

If Jesus had come back, if not in his own generation as he said, but at least like within three generations there would have been no problem. As the scripture says "in the World, but not of the World" and "our citizenship is in heaven". See? No conflict over World rule with the then Powers That Be.

But now? The Church is in the World and of the World, and therefore in conflict (war) over World domination.

Miller is all "We built it! We did it! You did nothing! You can't do anything!" Let's see Athens, Greek, not Judeo and not Christian. Rome, not Judeo, not Christian, until Christianity became Worldly, then the Dark Ages. Renaissance was making pre-Christian Roman Civilization Great Again. That brought Enlightenment, which brought the concept of Liberal Democracy, and hence the United States.

Human civilization is not the product of Judean or Christian religion. It just isn't.

I wish Christians could get back to the idea of just passing through this World rather than ruling it.
[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RjdCFc98lA]
This World Is Not My Home

While I consider myself a follower and disciple of Jesus Christ, I also believe in the necessity of the separation of powers, something that is statutorily upheld in British Common Law and the US Constitution, but is at odds with Christian nationalism (and other theocratic systems such as Sharia). And especially so with the more extreme version of theocracy espoused by Charlie Kirk and MAGA.

According to Jesus, all of the Law and Prophets are encompassed in two laws, Firstly, love God above all else and secondly, love others as you love yourself.

Additionally, others should know we are Christian by our love (in Greek, there are several words for love, each with different meanings and the love described here is specifically not 'eros' or erotic love).

This platonic love should be the marker and primary indicator of our Christianity. But in the "us and them" exclusionism of political dialogue, it finds expression in vilification of everything that is 'not us'. That is definitely not being loving!

Also, Jesus never said (in the Olivet Discourse) that His 'generation' (as we understand the English word) would see His return. The use of the word 'generation' in these passages in English Bibles is clearly a mistranslation if you read the original texts which were not in English.

In all three Gospels where the discourse is recorded, the word translated in some English bibles as "generation" is actually 'γενεά' in Koine Greek (which transliterates to 'genea'). This word has several meanings, but in context, its most likely reading is the English word 'age'.

Here's the Thayer's lexicon listing for the word, and note the absence, from any of these definitions, of it meaning a specific singular 'generation':

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;
1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).

And while Christianity was not the notional origin of any political systems, it has had 2000 years of influence on very many human cultures. I don't think you can ignore that. Nor is the USA the inventor and pinnacle of civilization that many of its citizens believe about themselves.

I also have another Biblical quote to add to this thread:

Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.