What to do about the 9 percent without American pride

[Bootless]

Respectfully... I didn't "look up" DEI because I lived it.
...
The spurious way these people have legitimized their violent assault on social order can never be understated.  It replaced everything in it's path with spiteful revenge.  Welcome to joy joy joy.

I was about to write how the social safety net caught me back in the day, but ...

The reason I chose to read Steinbeck's The Winter of our Discontent is that I figured that it may be a little more realistic than say the movie It's a Wonderful Life.

Turns out that the movie was based upon a self published short story The Greatest Gift by Philip Van Doren Stern. It's only about 16 pages. As tempted as I am to read it first, I will plug away at the Steinbeck until I finish that.

[argentus]

Most other nations don't put their armed forces on such a high plinth, I've knew a few soldiers for years before I actually found out about their service. The others I did talk to all had similar experiences. 

They judged themselves worse than the public ever could. Dark humour, they were just out there defending penguins (Falklands) shooting rice pickers (Korea) or separating goat shaggers from their goats and towels (Iraq & Afghanistan) the sense I often got was they hardly ever get the chance to be frank about their experiences because others think they should celebrate the nutters they became.

Then there's the places a couple of them fought where they really shouldn't have been, even positive judgement is still judgement, it's still a stereotype. In one of my talks I saw someone berated for thanking an ex SBS member for his service. He'd happily share a pint and stories but he knew fine and well he wanted no thanks for his deeds.

Maybe I just met some weirdos? Doubtful though considering the state of mental health amongst vets.

I'm not a vet, wanted to be though. I'll always lend an ear and that's why I bothered with this post, I wish to see vets finding less stress when it comes to chewing out what we've collectively asked them to do.  I have a suspicion that holding them to such high standards can be problematic for them.

If they can't justify it beyond "just doing my job, my jobs fucked up" then are we being helpful by doing it for them?

They have earned the right to question themselves, to judge themselves, in the same way that some LEOs dabble in macabre humor, in the same way the some first responders who have seen true horror sometimes crack jokes that would seem vulgar or crude to the average person.   In some ways, these are coping mechanisms for people who have seen too much.  Done too much and then been asked to slip quietly back into society and pretend it didn't happen.

Thank you for your post.   Good points.

[RichardHurt]

They have earned the right to question themselves, to judge themselves, in the same way that some LEOs dabble in macabre humor, in the same way the some first responders who have seen true horror sometimes crack jokes that would seem vulgar or crude to the average person.   In some ways, these are coping mechanisms for people who have seen too much.  Done too much and then been asked to slip quietly back into society and pretend it didn't happen.

I believe that response should be used in many other situations if only to bring people back to reality.

[argentus]

I believe that response should be used in many other situations if only to bring people back to reality.

Agree.   Sometimes LEOs in particular are characterized as 'cynical' or 'jaded'.   Some of the time, they have spent years wading in the miasma of human-caused shit and all the creative horrors people do to each other.  Not all LEOs are angels, but I do think the many frequently get painted by the few bad seeds, especially in the media.   

I think that people returning from warfare and other military action probably need more counseling than they realize.   Certainly more than is often available to them.   And who to do that counseling?  Someone who hasn't seen what they have?

[Maxmars]

I was about to write how the social safety net caught me back in the day, but ...

The reason I chose to read Steinbeck's The Winter of our Discontent is that I figured that it may be a little more realistic than say the movie It's a Wonderful Life.

Turns out that the movie was based upon a self published short story The Greatest Gift by Philip Van Doren Stern. It's only about 16 pages. As tempted as I am to read it first, I will plug away at the Steinbeck until I finish that.

Steinbeck's Miscontent is dense and rich... a true literary masterpiece.   
Not written to be a screenplay like some of today's big hits. 
Or re-crafted as a compromise to editors...
I found so much to experience as I read it...  I guess I will always be a reader.
I found no actual single story... there are many, many stories in Miscontent. (Just like life.)

A Wonderful life was a distinctly non-commercial film... (with a bad guy banker.... hmm)... 
It spoke to an older generation...
reminded them that people are at the end of every road...
... most villainy has it's foil
... and most people want to help victims of bad fortune. 

Here's to hoping it's less fiction today than it was yesterday.

Turns out, people, (myself at least,)  may actually turn out to need to suffer before they can learn some lessons.  Others are similar, except the solution isn't to suffer, but to get off their asses and go somewhere else...  commit to a purpose or idea... rather than obsess over why the world isn't perfect. 

A close acquaintance of mine who is of the "I hate this country" ilk is often on the receiving end of some advice I think he hates....

"Stop thinking about yourself so much... stop the preaching voice in your head for an hour a day... you are forcing a perception... and worse... you are being seen and understood doing it.  If it has to be forced you have already lost in your righteous vision of the way things should be..."

That's sort of a gist anyway...

I cant demand pride...
I can recognize that the world isn't all about me and my feelings.

But I do believe it is my right to feel it...
If I can feel it,

[argentus]

Circling back to the OP, and how it relates to these issues, I have to say that I wonder when national pride became a bad thing.   I think it's a matter of trust.   Somewhere along the line, perhaps in the 60s or 70s, America woke up and realized that many of it's leaders were corrupt, and that they would cause the deaths of many American soldiers in incursions for which the U.S. probably didn't belong.   Where we went astray and that time, imho, is that we blamed the soldiers, instead of the government.   We held the soldiers accountable for not refusing orders, for not resisting agains the great military machine. 

And..... in the process, we all began to question and were on unsound ground, especially after JFK was assassinated, and we saw how the government fed us a soup of shit and told us to swallow it.  

Things didn't improve much after that, except that eventually we stopped sending troops to be killed in Cambodia and Laos and Viet Nam.

Many things happened in between then and now, and U.S. citizens struggled to feel confident in their government.   We hoped for equality in the eyes of the law for every citizen.   We kept our heads down and worked and raised our families and hoped the government wouldn't get us in another war.  

Well, they did.  Several of them.   The people that were drafted, those that signed up voluntarily, those that evaded the draft, they all shaped the framework, and national pride was eroded.   This is of course, a simplistic outline.   

Of late, I think we have been encouraged to believe that to feel pride for the U.S. is negative and a sin of pride.  The U.S.'s sins are on full display everywhere.  If you feel pride for the U.S., you endorse racism, and seperatism, and genocide -- that is what we are told to believe.  

Yes, there is an erosion of pride.   The U.S. needs a lot of work.   Hopefully the next government will be moderate -- not left, not right, just that sweet chewy chocolate center that everyone can relate to.

[Bootless]

Agree.   Sometimes LEOs in particular are characterized as 'cynical' or 'jaded'.   Some of the time, they have spent years wading in the miasma of human-caused shit and all the creative horrors people do to each other.  Not all LEOs are angels, but I do think the many frequently get painted by the few bad seeds, especially in the media.   

I think that people returning from warfare and other military action probably need more counseling than they realize.   Certainly more than is often available to them.   And who to do that counseling?  Someone who hasn't seen what they have?

LEOs, Vets, and Words:

From Steinbeck:

So many words are mine because Aunt Deborah first aroused my curiosity
and then forced me to satisfy it by my own effort. Of course I replied,
“Who cares?” But she knew I would creep to it alone and she spelled it
so I could track it down. T-a-l-i-s-m-a-n. She cared deeply about words
and she hated their misuse as she would hate the clumsy handling of any
fine thing. Now, so many cycles later, I can see the page—can see
myself misspelling “talisman.” The Arabic was only a squiggly line with
a bulb on the end of it. The Greek I could pronounce because of the
blade of that old woman. “A stone or other object engraved with figures
or characters to which are attributed the occult powers of the planetary
influences and celestial configurations under which it was made, usually
worn as an amulet to avert evil from or bring fortune to the bearer.” I
had then to look for “occult,” “planetary,” “celestial,” and “amulet.”
It was always that way. One word set off others like a string of
fire-crackers.

Before the anti-war march, we were assembling in the park where the organized, permitted, and peaceful march was to begin and end.

Three mounted police were about 30 yards away getting ready. I called out "Hey peace officer, you here to march too?"

He gave a good natured chuckle, "I'm on duty, here to keep you safe."

"Well alrighty then. Thank you."

During the march, I was right at a spot where a motorcycle cop wearing sun glasses was parked when a banner with the words "Honk for Peace" drew even.  I turned to the cop who had his arms crossed and a bored expression on his face, "You've got a horn don't you? Give it a toot."

His bored expression was overshadowed with a look of contempt as he spit at me.

Anyway, back at the park different groups had tables set up with petitions and what not. I stopped at the Veterans For Peace table. They had a stack of printed newspapers. I took one. The front page article was titled something like The Patriotism Trap.

I read that article a few times. It made sense to me. The Houses of Congress were debating whether to authorize the President to go to war. The UN Security Council had already nixed it. So the Reps were getting up and trying to out patriot one another, as if the more they wrapped themselves in the flag, the greater their credibility would be. According to the Wikipedia, excess patriotism becomes chauvinism and jingoism.    

The roots of the word from Latin and Greek just mean "fellow countryman" so that any American is like a brother or sister to another American. I almost wrote with a common father, but that might seem sexist or patriarchal. So really, patriotism isn't a hill to climb, or a contest to win. It's just something we have by being born. People born elsewhere have it too, just with regard to a different place.

[argentus]

LEOs, Vets, and Words:

From Steinbeck:

Before the anti-war march, we were assembling in the park where the organized, permitted, and peaceful march was to begin and end.

Three mounted police were about 30 yards away getting ready. I called out "Hey peace officer, you here to march too?"

He gave a good natured chuckle, "I'm on duty, here to keep you safe."

"Well alrighty then. Thank you."

During the march, I was right at a spot where a motorcycle cop wearing sun glasses was parked when a banner with the words "Honk for Peace" drew even.  I turned to the cop who had his arms crossed and a bored expression on his face, "You've got a horn don't you? Give it a toot."

His bored expression was overshadowed with a look of contempt as he spit at me.

Anyway, back at the park different groups had tables set up with petitions and what not. I stopped at the Veterans For Peace table. They had a stack of printed newspapers. I took one. The front page article was titled something like The Patriotism Trap.

I read that article a few times. It made sense to me. The Houses of Congress were debating whether to authorize the President to go to war. The UN Security Council had already nixed it. So the Reps were getting up and trying to out patriot one another, as if the more they wrapped themselves in the flag, the greater their credibility would be. According to the Wikipedia, excess patriotism becomes chauvinism and jingoism.    

The roots of the word from Latin and Greek just mean "fellow countryman" so that any American is like a brother to another American. I almost wrote with a common father, but that might seem sexist or patriarchal. So really, patriotism isn't a hill to climb, or a contest to win. It's just something we have by being born. People born elsewhere have it too, just with regard to a different place.

I like what you wrote.   I always want to learn.  I also like Steinbeck. 

I grew up in a very small town and we all worked together because we had to.   It was a fairly diversified town for its time, because of the proximity of a major river, and the Cobalt mines nearby, and the wilderness, which was gradually being munched by the government via the encroachment of the BLM.

I think cities are unnatural.   I've lived in four cities.   They were fun because I was young.   They cannot ever generate the resources to begin to support themselves.   Our population ever grows, just like everywhere else.  I would guess that little towns are the most nearly self sustaining of any human construct.   The rural places feed the large conglomerations.   If I am ever appointed King, I will decentralize the cities, and attempt to homogenize the resources.   No more having to drive to a craft beer bar.   NoSir.   They will be everywhere.

[chr0naut]

Is this the bit where we attack Gandhi for being a pedophile and a hypocrite racist?

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x7FGbW3IVc]

He was famously anti-racist and celibate.

But on the internet, people will say all sorts of stuff...

[sahgwa]

He was famously anti-racist and celibate.

But on the internet, people will say all sorts of stuff...

Celibate; sure
 As he grew older (and following Kasturba's death) he was to have more women around him and would oblige women to sleep with him whom – according to his segregated ashram rules – were forbidden to sleep with their own husbands. Gandhi would have women in his bed, engaging in his "experiments" which seem to have been, from a reading of his letters, an exercise in strip-tease or other non-contact sexual activity. Much explicit material has been destroyed but tantalising remarks in Gandhi's letters remain such as: "Vina's sleeping with me might be called an accident. All that can be said is that she slept close to me." One might assume, then, that getting into the spirit of the Gandhian experiment meant something more than just sleeping close to him.
It can't, one imagines, can have helped with the "involuntary discharges" which Gandhi complained of experiencing more frequently since his return to India. He had an almost magical belief in the power of semen: "One who conserves his vital fluid acquires unfailing power," he said.
Meanwhile, it seemed that challenging times required greater efforts of spiritual fortitude, and for that, more attractive women were required: Sushila, who in 1947 was 33, was now due to be supplanted in the bed of the 77-year-old Gandhi by a woman almost half her age. While in Bengal to see what comfort he could offer in times of inter-communal violence in the run-up to independence, Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him. "We both may be killed by the Muslims," he told her, "and must put our purity to the ultimate test, so that we know that we are offering the purest of sacrifices, and we should now both start sleeping naked."

https://www.the-independent.com/arts-ent...12595.html