Vladimir Putin 'spits in Trump's face'

[sahgwa]

How is Russia invading and occupying Ukraine a proxy war? It's nothing of the sort.

You may see Europe and America supplying weapons to Ukraine as a proxy war but Russia was the invading force here.  Ukraine wanted to join the E.U. and was a long way off from even being considered for NATO membership.
Putin wanted to control the out come of Ukraine's alliances and interfere in Ukraine's democracy, which failed with the ex-prime minster fleeing to Russia.

The fact stands that per my attempts above, and the replies I have gotten now and in the past, we  are going around in circles . Failure to identify Western meddling in the Ukraine and in the so called Color Revolution leads to responses like yours above. 

People here and in many governments seem incapable or unwilling to identify cause and effect and historical events, and rather seem obsessed with focussing on the fact of Russians invasion as if it happened in a vacuum; there is no proper dialogue occurring, no attempt to see it from both points of view.  

I am just reading here what looks like mainstream media talking-point propaganda spewed verbatim to my queries.  My attempts to see both sides logically are receiving responses that just sound like a CNN comments section.

The participation in this forum has obviously been dwindling extremely the last year, and I can see why. Not only were many posters banned for political reasons, many of the others have left or even died.
  Any attempts to dialogue in a conspiratorial, or outside the box manner, or to see things from an outside third party perspective just receive emotional black and white responses.
There's no point in continuing, when points I have brought up have been willfully ignored.

This place has become like another corporate reddit .

[Kurokage]

People here and in many governments seem incapable or unwilling to identify cause and effect and historical events, and rather seem obsessed with focussing on the fact of Russians invasion as if it happened in a vacuum; there is no proper dialogue occurring, no attempt to see it from both points of view.  

I agree, and one of the biggest failures from people is to see Ukraine's history before the creation of communism. Something which you're guilty of and would rather blame the west for the latest attempts of Russians to control it.

Until that's excepted as fact, discussions about western interference are pretty moot.

[sahgwa]

I agree, and one of the biggest failures from people is to see Ukraine's history before the creation of communism. Something which you're guilty of and would rather blame the west for the latest attempts of Russians to control it.

Until that's excepted as fact, discussions about western interference are pretty moot.

With all due respect, the Russian invasion has little to do with Ukraine's history as a land mostly conquered by Varangian/Vikings and inhabited by the Kiev Rus, which give their name to the state of Russia.  If anything, it shows that the two countries were largely one land and that any outside interference or 'help' as has been occurring is nothing but a money laundering scheme.  I have seen the statue of Volodymyr/Vladimir the First in Kiev and know full well the Russian tribes alliance which created this 'nation,' and that when this individual was converted to Christianity from Norse paganism, the ties to Byzantine church thought and rule occurred in the first century AD - I even visited the monasteries.  Nearby which are many mafia strongholds   This is the perfect area to divide people and waste their time while corruption occurs.
This divide and conquer and money laundering corruption crap - 
It's all part of the Kissinger and other colonising play books.  Both American and Russian.  So the fact that you consider all outside influence besides Russia's as 'moot' speaks volumes to your ignorance and bias. 
But go on with your one sided ness, you are just repeating yourself. I think I have spent enough energy on this Fox news of a thread.

[UltraBudgie]

The fact stands that per my attempts above, and the replies I have gotten now and in the past, we  are going around in circles .

Yes it's quite interesting. You can bring up references, and they don't exist, or are unreliable, or irrelevant, or then something in them is cherry-picked and focused on to deflect from the point. You can mention history, then that becomes the debate. Any term or definition become unreliable and shifts. And if you do actually manage to make a point that can't be wormed away from—guess what! The next time the issue is mentioned everything is back to square one as if it never happened.

Democrats and Putin-appeasers are just the worst.

[Kurokage]

https://theconversation.com/why-does-put...nce-253043

 
In 1547, Ivan declared Muscovy a tsardom and Moscow to be the “Third Rome” – in other words, the latest centre of true Christianity, after Rome and Constantinople. This idea made conquest seem like a holy mission. By the late 1700s, the Russian Empire had destroyed Poland-Lithuania in a series of territorial annexations and wars. It had spread far to the south and east, and now bordered with Prussia and Austria.
Ukraine, with its rich farmland and cultural connection to Kyivan Rus, was a top prize. Russian leaders called Ukraine “Malorossiya”, or “Little Russia”, to claim it was just a small part of a larger, Russian whole. They banned Ukrainian-language publications, forced the Orthodox Church of Ukraine to answer to Moscow, and tried to stamp out any sense of a separate Ukrainian identity.
However, Ukraine developed its own cultural identity, shaped by its Cossack traditions, its history under Polish–Lithuanian rule, and its separate experiences. Many Ukrainians argue their culture existed long before Muscovy evolved into an empire.
 

[Kurokage]

With all due respect, the Russian invasion has little to do with Ukraine's history as a land mostly conquered by Varangian/Vikings and inhabited by the Kiev Rus,

I think you should maybe research it a bit more.

[Maxmars]

I like to play a game... when I see media information, encapsulated and reiterated like this... it indicated to me a very real likelihood that the topic is very much pertinent... and there is a potential to either directly or indirectly to inspire enough people to ask the difficult questions...

Why do you want the world to believe that you were "forced" into a war that you practically begged for?
Why do you claim to want to stop the war... and continue to wage it?
Why do you expect the rest of the planet to solve your problems?

How much money did you dump into this 'struggle for existence' which can only be measured in death and money?...

How can you win?   If you can't, why kill more people?


These questions lead to an inference ...
For these "celebrity" players....

"This war is about 'me' ... the "winner."

[andy06shake]

The fact stands that per my attempts above, and the replies I have gotten now and in the past, we  are going around in circles . Failure to identify Western meddling in the Ukraine and in the so called Color Revolution leads to responses like yours above. 

People here and in many governments seem incapable or unwilling to identify cause and effect and historical events, and rather seem obsessed with focussing on the fact of Russians invasion as if it happened in a vacuum; there is no proper dialogue occurring, no attempt to see it from both points of view.  

I am just reading here what looks like mainstream media talking-point propaganda spewed verbatim to my queries.  My attempts to see both sides logically are receiving responses that just sound like a CNN comments section.

The participation in this forum has obviously been dwindling extremely the last year, and I can see why. Not only were many posters banned for political reasons, many of the others have left or even died.
  Any attempts to dialogue in a conspiratorial, or outside the box manner, or to see things from an outside third party perspective just receive emotional black and white responses.
There's no point in continuing, when points I have brought up have been willfully ignored.

This place has become like another corporate reddit .

Circles are exactly the problem.

But people are still dying.

And men, women, and children, are being slaughtered via cruise missile attack, artillery barrage, and drone strikes.

While Ukraine defends and fights for its very survival as a sovereign nation.

As long as they see a point in continuing what we say or how we feel about the matter is beside the point.

[Kurokage]

 So the fact that you consider all outside influence besides Russia's as 'moot' speaks volumes to your ignorance and bias. 
But go on with your one sided ness, you are just repeating yourself. I think I have spent enough energy on this Fox news of a thread.

The trouble is, you seem to say one thing about unbiased views, but in reality just want to blame the west and Ukraine for Russia invading a free sovereign country.
In doing so, give Russia a free pass, because you seem to think you're the only one that can see this war for what it truly is, and attempt to brush the rest of us off as 'lesser' posters.

It appears a bit narcissistic to me. 

I don't see many of the Putin sympathizers or those who blame the west offer anything other than Ukraine should give up, and the west should stop supporting them.
Is that really the best out come? What does that tell Putin or the rest of the world?

[sahgwa]

The trouble is, you seem to say one thing about unbiased views, but in reality just want to blame the west and Ukraine for Russia invading a free sovereign country.
In doing so, give Russia a free pass, because you seem to think you're the only one that can see this war for what it truly is, and attempt to brush the rest of us off as 'lesser' posters.

It appears a bit narcissistic to me. 

I don't see many of the Putin sympathizers or those who blame the west offer anything other than Ukraine should give up, and the west should stop supporting them.
Is that really the best out come? What does that tell Putin or the rest of the world?

Russia should not have invaded, but I see it from their side that they were trying to stop the genocide of populations by Ukraine's own government, and also they were responding to Western meddling.  So if you keep thinking I am giving Russia a free pass for invasion you are mistaken, I am merely trying to see it from both sides. Which you seem unable or unwilling to do.  Fini.  

As if in response to this thread, I read this news today.
THE HAGUE recognises Russia's claim of Ukraine's genocide, as admissible in Court:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/fi...-00-en.pdf

... the Applicant requests the Court to “[a]djudge and declare that there is no credible evidence that Ukraine is responsible for committing genocide in violation of the Genocide Convention in the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine”, and that the submission in question was admissible