St. Teresa

[Swada]

So-- she would enter a religious trance (called 'ecstasy')  that was very similar to what the Tibetan llamas (and other groups into meditation and mysticism) had and similar to shamanic trances.  If you've seen the Whirling Dervishes dancing, their dancing will put them into this kind of state.  So will certain kinds of drumming.

This is just how the brain processes these things.

What each person sees and experiences depends on their culture and their beliefs.  Buddhists experience Buddha.  Taoists experience the Tao. Voodoo practitioners experience many different gods.  Shamans don't experience gods but they do experience nature archetypes.  Catholic saints encounter the God that their culture told them to experience.

Think of it as "deep meditation", because you can also enter this kind of state (where the sensations of the world do not impact your conscious mind) in hypnosis and self-hypnosis.

What may not be obvious to western thinking.  Is that mind and I AM are two distinct natures.  Mind is our manifested conciousness whereas I AM is our unmanifested witness.  When techniques are used to suppress the mind.  One can temporarily experience the nature of I AM, which is all pervading love, for all things.  In deep meditation only the I AM can pass the gate to temple within (or atman) to bathe in the unmanifested waters.

That is why St francis of assisi said "What we are looking for is what is looking".

If you want explore the difference between both those natures a wonderful book called "The Mirror of Simple Souls", written by christian mystic Marguerite Porete, is one of the best.

[Byrd]

Oh my dear Byrd, was was, were were you really test me

Gratitude for the lessons

These kinds of lessons and insights don't come easy.  There are so many layers to things -- some of it is basic human functions (the practices that can bring someone to a religious ecstasy), some of it cultural (what we are taught that the Divine looks or sounds like (hence St. Teresa undergoing mortification of the flesh to prove her insights and visions were not demonic (the belief was that pain drove out evil (devils)), and more.

This is why it's hard for the Western (European-USA-centric) mindset to view shamanic trances as "religious ecstasy" instead of "demonic possession" or "pagan rites" or "crazy behavior."  Anthropologists did drag themselves away from this very cultural centric view, but it wasn't until about 40 years ago that we started seeing some real in-depth studies that respected what shamans and other individuals were experiencing.

[Sirius]

These kinds of lessons and insights don't come easy.  There are so many layers to things -- some of it is basic human functions (the practices that can bring someone to a religious ecstasy), some of it cultural (what we are taught that the Divine looks or sounds like (hence St. Teresa undergoing mortification of the flesh to prove her insights and visions were not demonic (the belief was that pain drove out evil (devils)), and more.

This is why it's hard for the Western (European-USA-centric) mindset to view shamanic trances as "religious ecstasy" instead of "demonic possession" or "pagan rites" or "crazy behavior."  Anthropologists did drag themselves away from this very cultural centric view, but it wasn't until about 40 years ago that we started seeing some real in-depth studies that respected what shamans and other individuals were experiencing.

Do you know anything about this "Mystical theology is generally divided into three parts, respectively called the purgative, the illuminative, and the unitive"

and this

The object of mystical
theology is to treat of the extraordinary graces of
the supernatural life of the soul, and to give the
rules for the direction of souls who by the special
favour of God are called to perfection by the extra
ordinary way of mysticism. It has also to deal with

some mystical phenomena by which God s predilec
tion for these souls is manifested, such as visions,
locutions, revelations, prophecies, and miracles.

There is a problem here with nomenclature ...those are the same as siddhis... sliding scales

Intent is what matters

"revelations, prophecies, and miracles" is for..effect/event that occurred and miracles is as vague as one can get and makes it seem incredible and I mean sure it is, but there is a sliding scale

the practices are universal, folks just go woo woo crazy because "spiritual" and the ecstasy and it's not always ecstasy

meditation and other rituals/ceremonies/ice breakers..."the sound of one hand clapping"

I'm just going to leave this at St. Teresa seems to have known what's up with what and doing guided mediation and prayer following her methods is probably not the worst thing you could do....

[Sirius]

A MANUAL OF MYSTICAL THEOLOGY
BY THE
REV. ARTHUR DEVINE

Looks like a good book for anyone interested, lots of lost of theory, he seems to explain it well and give some practical stuff also. Lot's of references to St. Teresa

left and right brain, syncing it, training senses, hint hint hint.  a psychics handbook just without fairies and elementals...

Doctors of theology and of philosophy distinguish
two parts in man one sensitive, the other man. intellectual.
The sensitive part by its sensitive
faculties produces sensitive acts. The other and
higher part produces intellectual acts. The faculties
of the sensitive parts are the external senses, namely,
sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch; and the
internal senses, which are chiefly two, or, at least,
the two suffice for my present purpose, namely, the
sensus communis (or common-sense) and the phantasy
or imagination. They are termed senses, or organic
powers, because they operate by means of a material
organ, and have for their formal objects individual,
concrete, sensible facts. The word internal marks
their subjective character and the interior machinery
of their operations

 

None of the faculties of the sensitive part  except the phantasy can co-operate with contemplation a direct or proximate way, but they may do so in a remote manner with regard to the contemplation of sensible things, or by procuring images the phantasy or thoughts for the understanding.It is said that the way in which they can co-operate is remote because their operations are always exercised beforehand, and not in the act of contemplation itself.

 

It will be seen from the above outline of the senses and the sensitive feelings that everything
must begin at the senses uncLat the imagination , &
which preserves, continues, renews, and diversifies
the impressions conveyed by means of them.

The purification of the senses is accomplished by means of the purification of the mind. When the mind is healed, the. senses which are animated by it are deprived of their poison.

 

No one is more on the watch than the Saint to detect false sanctity and to avoid contagion with it. When St. Teresa first began to receive Divine
favours and to be led by
" extraordinary ways," she was tormented by the thought that she was like a
certain Poor Clare, who for thirty years excited the
admiration of all Spain, but who in the end confessed
that she had criminally deceived almost the whole
of Christendom

St. Teresa, far from seeding these supernatural
gifts, felt more and more anxious ; her fears increased
(the words are her own) in proportion as she felt that what was taking place within her was above
the capacity of nature. It was only after years of
trial and struggle, and by comparing reiterated ex
periences, that, reassured on the score of her own
good faith, and vanquished by love, she gave way
without fear, and consequently without reserve. She was sure of God s love and sure of herself, and
from that time onward there was no gift that she did
not accept and describe.

https://ia801308.us.archive.org/10/items...viuoft.pdf

[Sirius]

Interesting Dude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Divine

https://www.artandpopularculture.com/Mystical_theology
Major works since St. Teresa

• 1588 – St. Teresa of Avila’s Works
  
• 1702 – St. John of the Cross’ Works
  
• 1754 – G. B. Scaramelli’s A Handbook of Mystical Theology
  
• 1767 – Benedict XIV’s Heroic Virtue
  
• 1876 – Augustine Baker’s Holy Wisdom
  
• 1903 – Arthur Devine’s A Manual of Mystical Theology
  
• 1910 – Augustin Poulain’s The Graces of Interior Prayer
  
• 1917 – Savinien Louismet’s The Mystical Knowledge of God
  
• 1922 – Cuthbert Butler's Western Mysticism
  
• 1926 – Albert Farges’ Mystical Phenomena Compared with Their Human and Diabolical Counterfeits
  
• 1930 – Adolphe Tanquerey’s The Spiritual Life
  
• 1938 – Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s The Three Ages of the Interior Life
  
• 1947 – Montague Summers’ The Physical Phenomena of Mysticism
  
• 1952 – Herbert Thurston’s The Physical Phenomena of Mysticism
  
• 1953 – Joseph de Guibert’s The Theology of the Spiritual Life
  
• 1957 – Robert Zaehner's Mysticism: Sacred and Profane
  
• 1976 – Vladimir Lossky’s The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church
  
• 1982 – Jordan Aumann’s Spiritual Theology
  
• 1989 – Thomas Dubay’s Fire Within
  
• 1993 – Benedict Groeschel’s A Still, Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations
  

[Byrd]

Do you know anything about this "Mystical theology is generally divided into three parts, respectively called the purgative, the illuminative, and the unitive"

I hadn't encountered that quote before, and my first thought was "Wow!  That's... VERY Christian-centric; a worldview that divides ecstatic experiences into "Christian" and "demonic" (for anything non-Christian.)  There's no room for anything else there and it would not fit well with, say, the understanding of Buddhists or others.

And then I looked up the quote and saw it was indeed Christian - and a conservative branch of Christianity at that.

Is it wrong?  Well, no.  That's how monastic Christians would see interaction with the divine.

Do other Christians and other religions/practices have a different division/experience?  Yes.

Whose is the right way?  Whichever way makes most sense to you to reach your goal.

Many people think of all religions as some variant of "great sky parent looking after you" and while this is true of a number of religions, it is not true for all of them or for all philosophies (I'm thinking of Tao and similar practices.)

[Sirius]

I hadn't encountered that quote before, and my first thought was "Wow!  That's... VERY Christian-centric; a worldview that divides ecstatic experiences into "Christian" and "demonic" (for anything non-Christian.)  There's no room for anything else there and it would not fit well with, say, the understanding of Buddhists or others.

And then I looked up the quote and saw it was indeed Christian - and a conservative branch of Christianity at that.

Is it wrong?  Well, no.  That's how monastic Christians would see interaction with the divine.

Do other Christians and other religions/practices have a different division/experience?  Yes.

Whose is the right way?  Whichever way makes most sense to you to reach your goal.

Many people think of all religions as some variant of "great sky parent looking after you" and while this is true of a number of religions, it is not true for all of them or for all philosophies (I'm thinking of Tao and similar practices.)

What are you doing Byrd? Why do you bring this here "Christian" and "demonic"

This is about self development and love

Your being very nasty somewhere you shouldn't

I'm trying to unite peoples

What is your agenda?

[Sirius]

Folks I have shown you great revelations here, you can chose to bring up walls and keep everyone sperate, or you can reach out a hand and sort out the nomenclature around practices, doctrine won't serve you here. The purpose is to share information and learn from each other.

That list of names and books I posted from 1588 until now is also NHI contactees weather you like it or not in the same vain. Ask your lizzards and whatever else you are talking to about that

St. Teresa deserves nothing but respect and at the very least we can learn from her and study what she wrote and her life and the people after her

[Sirius]

You can't just go this and that is wrong, you have to bring something that forwards the narrative. You must build, not destroy, it's not complicated. If you destroy it's for the purpose of rebuilding. The narrative is unity and shared experiences and you will have to put on a thick skin.

I don't really think that will be accomplished here, I'm just sharing the information I find. Use it or lose it

[Byrd]

What are you doing Byrd? Why do you bring this here "Christian" and "demonic"

This is about self development and love

Your being very nasty somewhere you shouldn't

I'm trying to unite peoples

What is your agenda?

I think you've misunderstood what I intend.

St. Teresa was an excellent person, but her worldview is biased by her own faith.  Other faiths come to the divine in many other ways.  

These ways are not similar, by the way... and I'm pointing this out because I know of other systems.  The "one size fits all" does not work in spirituality.

Take "speaking in tongues" as an example (at about the 40 second mark here)



This kind of thing isn't immediately categorizable and the posture/expression difference between the preacher (the woman) and the man that they show briefly is quite interesting.  I would categorize this as two different expressions and experiences of faith -- the man appears to be in a trance type ecstasy but she seems to be more in a frenzy-type ecstasy.  The man's experience seems to be much deeper than hers (at least on the surface.  I would categorize his experience as being more similar to St. Teresa's, by the way.)

Christians of her time would not have looked on this practice kindly, as a rule, yet I think it is clear that both here are experiencing something religious.  (I am assuming that both are experiencing something genuine though I am aware that in this case one or both may be faking it.) 

There is no "one way" that works for everyone.  Meditation works very poorly for someone with ADHD.  Trance-inducing rituals do not work for the few in each population who can't be hypnotized (yes, there are people like that.)

Learning about other practices is fascinating and good for personal development.  Insisting that a single practice is THE true path for everyone... just doesn't work because of culture, personality, etc.

Exploring the lives of saints (in all religions) is an excellent thing to do, IMHO.