Old and New Testament, and Koran, as a mystical Egyptian initiation

[andy06shake]

And your point?

Just that they are stories based on ones that came before.
 
A rehash, rinse, and repeat of similar tales.
 
That stretch far back before any of our Abrahamic religions.
 
No particular point as of yet, unless it's the tip of a very similar spear. 

[Creaky]

Just that they are stories based on ones that came before.
 
A rehash, rinse, and repeat of similar tales.
 
That stretch far back before any of our Abrahamic religions.
 
No particular point as of yet, unless it's the tip of a very similar spear. 

A rehash, why are they not an original story passed down over generations, why are they a rehash. Why is it rinsed, it’s just repeated, it’s clearly not rinsed in the Hebrew, they covered their evil deeds, with clarity, their failures. No other book details a societies evil and failures as clearly as the Hebrew recorded their own history. 
We all have a common ancestor so we all have a similar origin and story to match.

[andy06shake]

A rehash, why are they not an original story passed down over generations, why are they a rehash. Why is it rinsed, it’s just repeated, it’s clearly not rinsed in the Hebrew, they covered their evil deeds, with clarity, their failures. No other book details a societies evil and failures as clearly as the Hebrew recorded their own history. 
We all have a common ancestor so we all have a similar origin and story to match.

Because the story of the Book of Genesis and the Sumerian flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh share remarkable similarities, that's why.

LIke that fact that in both, the gods decide to destroy humanity with a great flood.

Where one ""righteous"" man is warned beforehand or thereabouts.

Aka "Noah" in Genesis and "Utnapishtim" in Gilgamesh.

Both build large ""ocean-going boats"" save animals, survive the flood, and release birds to find new dry land.

Granted, one boat seems rather more magical than the other, but similar nevertheless.

And afterward, both ""righteous"" survivors offer sacrifices to the divine beings.

Tell me that does not at least suggest some sort of ""cultural exchange"" between ancient Mesopotamian and the Hebrew traditions? 

[quintessentone]

Because the story of the Book of Genesis and the Sumerian flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh share remarkable similarities, that's why.

LIke that fact that in both, the gods decide to destroy humanity with a great flood.

Where one ""righteous"" man is warned beforehand or thereabouts.

Aka "Noah" in Genesis and "Utnapishtim" in Gilgamesh.

Both build large ""ocean-going boats"" save animals, survive the flood, and release birds to find new dry land.

Granted, one boat seems rather more magical than the other, but similar nevertheless.

And afterward, both ""righteous"" survivors offer sacrifices to the divine beings.

Tell me that does not at least suggest some sort of ""cultural exchange"" between ancient Mesopotamian and the Hebrew traditions? 

Do no harm is where we all should we should be at this point in our humanity, IMO.

[Creaky]

Because the story of the Book of Genesis and the Sumerian flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh share remarkable similarities, that's why.

LIke that fact that in both, the gods decide to destroy humanity with a great flood.

Where one ""righteous"" man is warned beforehand or thereabouts.

Aka "Noah" in Genesis and "Utnapishtim" in Gilgamesh.

Both build large ""ocean-going boats"" save animals, survive the flood, and release birds to find new dry land.

Granted, one boat seems rather more magical than the other, but similar nevertheless.

And afterward, both ""righteous"" survivors offer sacrifices to the divine beings.

Tell me that does not at least suggest some sort of ""cultural exchange"" between ancient Mesopotamian and the Hebrew traditions? 

Cultural exchange or common ancestry, it’s the same story
Surely it’s obvious it’s the same story handed down through generations with slight changes.

[andy06shake]

Cultural exchange or common ancestry, it’s the same story
Surely it’s obvious it’s the same story handed down through generations with slight changes.

Obvious to some more than others, Creaky.

[andy06shake]

Do no harm is where we all should we should be at this point in our humanity, IMO.

Then i have failed miserably in a previous life, quint.

It's easy to say, but living that ethos is another matter, depending on situation and geography.

Which can rapidly change in this life, sometimes in the blink of an eye. 

You see it sounds noble, but it's impossible in practice because every action has consequences.

Combine that with the fact that as a species, we survive through competition and consumption.

We are far from that sort of perfection, and so is nature in general, thats not just a human condition.  

The real challenge is not about eliminating harm.

It's about minimising how much you create at the expense of other people.

Life is a contact sport, mate, people are going to get hurt one way or the other, intentionally or otherwise.

It's just how we roll as a species...

What we do have is room for improvement and the ability to empathise with others. 

[Datguy]

I suppose "evidence" of the Exodus does literally exist.

There is much evidence of Semitic peoples having influence in Egyptian culture and governance. Physical structures and historical records exist.

Biblical records of Joseph as a leader/Governor in the Egyptian hierarchy are backed by such physical and historic records. 




(sorry if that doesn't work, its my first try at linking videos here)

If we follow the timeline of the drought, both in the bible and historic Egyptian records we can see how ancient Egyptian civilization fell apart and fell to invaders after the the Exodus of the backbone of Egyptian society (Semitic slaves) left the region.

[Wepwawet]

I suppose "evidence" of the Exodus does literally exist.

There is much evidence of Semitic peoples having influence in Egyptian culture and governance. Physical structures and historical records exist.

Biblical records of Joseph as a leader/Governor in the Egyptian hierarchy are backed by such physical and historic records. 

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTAUsgwMAZ0]

(sorry if that doesn't work, its my first try at linking videos here)

If we follow the timeline of the great drought, both in the bible and historic Egyptian records we can see how ancient Egyptian civilization fell apart and fell to invaders after the the Exodus of the backbone of Egyptian society (Semitic slaves) left the region.

I rather think that you are putting the cart before the horse. The Ancient Egyptians are Semitic, their DNA shows them to have origins in the Levant and further into West Eurasia.

The "great drought", a term never used by the Egyptians, was a fall in the level of the Nile, which was probably a contributory factor towards the fall of the Old Kingdom, this was over 500 years before the Middle Kingdom fell to the Hyksos.

That the Hyksos were Levantines is not in doubt, but their rule in Egypt ended some 350 years before the first record of the name Israel on the Merneptah stele, but even that is still hundreds of years away from Hebrews appearing in the historical record.

If you wish to equate the Exodus to the expulsion of the Hyksos, then the effect on Egyptian civilisation was the opposite of "falling apart", instead it led to the New Kingdom and the creation of an Egyptian Empire, an empire that encompassed all the territory of modern Israel, and the Egyptians failed to notice any Hebrews, or to make even the slightest mention of them for 350 years, and then just one name on a stele, and nothing again for hundreds of years more.

The dynastic state of Egypt was already some 2,000 years old by the time of the first instance of the name Israel, the Egyptians owe nothing to anybody who called themselves Hebrew or Israelite. What has happened is that these Israelites have imposed their nation building mythology on Egypt, and this has been reinforced by Christianity, by a blind belief that a book created by men is the actual word of a god.

[Datguy]

I rather think that you are putting the cart before the horse. The Ancient Egyptians are Semitic, their DNA shows them to have origins in the Levant and further into West Eurasia.

The "great drought", a term never used by the Egyptians, was a fall in the level of the Nile, which was probably a contributory factor towards the fall of the Old Kingdom, this was over 500 years before the Middle Kingdom fell to the Hyksos.

That the Hyksos were Levantines is not in doubt, but their rule in Egypt ended some 350 years before the first record of the name Israel on the Merneptah stele, but even that is still hundreds of years away from Hebrews appearing in the historical record.

If you wish to equate the Exodus to the expulsion of the Hyksos, then the effect on Egyptian civilisation was the opposite of "falling apart", instead it led to the New Kingdom and the creation of an Egyptian Empire, an empire that encompassed all the territory of modern Israel, and the Egyptians failed to notice any Hebrews, or to make even the slightest mention of them for 350 years, and then just one name on a stele, and nothing again for hundreds of years more.

The dynastic state of Egypt was already some 2,000 years old by the time of the first instance of the name Israel, the Egyptians owe nothing to anybody who called themselves Hebrew or Israelite. What has happened is that these Israelites have imposed their nation building mythology on Egypt, and this has been reinforced by Christianity, by a blind belief that a book created by men is the actual word of a god.

By the time Josephus drew the connection between Joseph and the Hyksos, Isreal was in open war with Rome. It wasn't long after that the 2nd temple was destroyed by the invading Roman army. This would be about 1600 years after Joseph

Biblical timelines show centuries had passed between the time of Josephs governance in egypt and the hyksos incursions, it would be centuries more before the time of Moses. so no i dont beleive the exodus and the expulsion of the hyksos are even equated through causality. 
I also do not ascribe the biblical drought forseen by Joseph as a "great drought" in any term outside a biblical reference, i did not use quotations to depict any significance. There is record of a massive and prolonged drought believed to have been about 2200 bc, but this is likely before the timeline of Joseph, probably before the Isrealites entered Egypt. I have edited out the word "great" from my post, if that helps...

How many great ancient civilizations have attributed their rise or fall to the workers (slaves) who supported them. Regardless, there is more evidence to support the "nation building mythology" of the Isrealites than there is against it. Historically, and within the archeological evidence.