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'No big deal" Just an atmospheric phenomenon' some outages green energy absolved
#91
To put it country simple, like I have been speculating in this thread, blame the renewable energy coupled with space weather :

BLACKOUTS: AN ANONYMOUS EXPERT VIEW

From a deep groupchat, last night, translated from Spanish, written by an expert in transmission and distribution of power. Not my words.

"What has happened on April 28 has a well-located origin: the Aragón-Catalonia corridor, which is one of the most important electric highways in Spain. There is not only the electricity produced by our solar and wind farms in the northeast, but also the electricity that we import from France. This international interconnection, although weak (it can only contribute 3% of our demand, well below the minimum of 10% that marks the EU), in times of stress is essential to balance the network.

At 12:32 p.m., in that Aragón-Catalonia corridor there was an electric shock. What exactly does “shake” mean? It means that suddenly and abnormally, the power that flowed through those lines began to vary violently, rising and falling in a very short time. Such abrupt variability can be due to three main causes:

That a relay or transformer on that electric highway detects an abnormal flow of current or voltage (higher or lower than expected) and automatically disconnected to avoid burning or destroyed. This is called that “opens” a relay or switch: it jumps and cuts the passage of electricity to protect itself.

That the enormous concentration of renewable energy in that area (mainly solar and wind) has created an electrical resonance: electronic inverters, which synchronize current, can sometimes be amplified between them if a small voltage alteration (for example, due to clouds, strong wind or a slight failure) extends like an echo to all devices, causing widespread oscillations.

That a wrong control order has been sent (by mistake or attack) from the SCADA systems, disconnecting or reducing the generation of multiple hit plants. There is no confirmation of this possibility yet, but it is being investigated.

What is known is that as a consequence of that shake, the interconnection with France jumped: we were isolated just at the worst time, when the peninsula needed external support to stabilize.

Without that French help, the frequency of the peninsular network (which should always be 50 Hz exact) began to drop quickly. The frequency is like the heartbeat of the network: if it falls too much, the systems understand that the patient (the network) is collapsing and automatically disconnected so as not to self-destruct. Thus, in just five seconds, the solar and wind farms were turned off —very sensitive to frequency variations—, 15 GW of power was lost suddenly (60% of all the electricity generated at that time), and the network could not take it anymore: it was It collapsed completely, showing the Redeia Platform (REE) a “0 MW” nationwide. That does not mean that all the turbines were physically turned off, but there was no generator synchronized at the common frequency of 50 Hz. It was, for practical purposes, a country off.

To ignite a completely dead network again, one essential thing is needed: plants that can start in black, that is, without receiving energy from anywhere else. Spain has identified five large hydroelectric jumps capable of doing this. However, and here is one of the great negligences that are coming to light, three of those five groups were stopped in scheduled maintenance, by business decision supervised by the administration. Only two were operational. That made the recovery much slower and weaker than it should be in a normal contingency plan.

The result is that, after almost 10 hours, only 35% to 40% of the national supply has been recovered, and there are still large areas in the dark or under scheduled cuts.

The situation reveals a very serious underlying problem:

Spain is still an energy island: it only has 3% foreign exchange capacity compared to its total demand. The network depends a lot on variable renewables, which are disconnected quickly in the face of any instability. The lack of physical inertia reserves (i.e. large rotating masses such as thermal power plants or classic hydraulics) prevents the disturbances from damping. And poor maintenance planning left without enough hydraulic muscle to respond to a crisis. The most likely causes, with current data, are: A combination of technical failure in protection or in synchronization, added to a serious lack of operational forecast and maintenance (probability ≈ 40%). The possibility of an intentional cyber-physical attack remains in analysis (≈ 25% estimated probability). Other factors such as human error, punctual atmospheric phenomenon or mixed causes complete the rest. In short: an initial shake at the most sensitive point of the Spanish network —the Aragón-Catalonia corridor, door to Europe— left the peninsula isolated and vulnerable. The network could not sustain its own demand because it did not have sufficient assistance, nor stable physical reserve, nor enough bootable plants in black. Three of five hydroelectric jumps were out of service when they were most needed. For this reason, Spain went out in five seconds, and that is why it still continues to light little by little, fragile, slow and exposed.
#92
Quote:Without that French help, the frequency of the peninsular network (which should always be 50 Hz exact) began to drop quickly. The frequency is like the heartbeat of the network: if it falls too much, the systems understand that the patient (the network) is collapsing and automatically disconnected so as not to self-destruct. Thus, in just five seconds, the solar and wind farms were turned off —very sensitive to frequency variations—, 15 GW of power was lost suddenly (60% of all the electricity generated at that time), and the network could not take it anymore: it was It collapsed completely, showing the Redeia Platform (REE) a “0 MW” nationwide. That does not mean that all the turbines were physically turned off, but there was no generator synchronized at the common frequency of 50 Hz. It was, for practical purposes, a country off.

When you're currently running on 60% solar and you lose 60% of you generating capacity at once...

Everyone is learning about the faults of vast renewable energy systems the require a 50 Hz synchronization that are susceptible to...

Quote: an electrical resonance: electronic inverters, which synchronize current, can sometimes be amplified between them if a small voltage alteration (for example, due to clouds, strong wind or a slight failure) extends like an echo to all devices, causing widespread oscillations.


Let's see if it happens again. If it's due to the vast number of localized inverters causing a resonance that leads to amplified oscilations this should keep happening every time it goes heavy renewable. Data says there wasn't a weather or wind event, the convenient causes.

And if it's not weather induced or magnetosphere or ionophere induced, it's induced by a resonance of multiple inverters in close proximity feeding off themselves and falling into a sci-fi feedback loop.

Hate to say it, because I support renewable energy and moving away from fossil fuels, but this seems all too plausible if you only know enough to sound smart repeating it. And kinda funny in a way Al Gore could never have predicted.

It can be probably blamed on green energy. Or at least the touchiness of its transfer system.
[Image: e53b73507ce97f7fb894ce707aaaffb0.jpg]
#93
Something I forgot to say in my previous post:
Everything was working as it should except one, the Tax and Customs Authority, so neither their site (where all tax declarations and invoices are submitted and where people and businesses go to get their payment slips to pay their taxes) did not work for the whole day (2025-04-29). Today it is working, but only in part, so it's not possible to search for or submit invoices.

Today I read that the loss of power included 15 GW of solar power and 3.3 GW of nuclear power, and according to the Portuguese CEO of a company that makes solar power stations, the problem was that some companies in the solar energy market were eager to start selling energy, so they rushed the process and their GFM inverters were not working as they should and started establishing different voltages and frequencies and weren't able to stabilise, so the rest of the grid was not capable of keeping the stability and the shutdown started.

Apparently, a good percentage of power stations were closed for maintenance, including some nuclear power stations, so they had less capacity to start from zero and had to rely in imports from France and Morocco.

In Portugal, things were helped by a natural gas power station (run by a Japanese company and kept as backup for situations like this, they do not sell the energy) and a hydroelectric power plant.
#94
(04-29-2025, 11:28 PM)sahgwa Wrote: To put it country simple, like I have been speculating in this thread, blame the renewable energy coupled with space weather :

BLACKOUTS: AN ANONYMOUS EXPERT VIEW

That's an interesting theory, but everything I have read points to the problem being in the opposite "corner" of Spain, Andalucia, near Morocco.
#95
Just a little note about the "chaos":
Today I saw on Euronews a Spanish reporter in a large train station in Madrid was talking about the "chaos" while we could see that everyone was calm and waiting in line for either get a ticket or get some informations.

Saying that things are going slowly but calmly doesn't sell as much as saying everything is in chaos. Smile
#96
(04-30-2025, 12:24 AM)IdeomotorPrisoner Wrote: When you're currently running on 60% solar and you lose 60% of you generating capacity at once...

Everyone is learning about the faults of vast renewable energy systems the require a 50 Hz synchronization that are susceptible to...



Let's see if it happens again. If it's due to the vast number of localized inverters causing a resonance that leads to amplified oscilations this should keep happening every time it goes heavy renewable. Data says there wasn't a weather or wind event, the convenient causes.

And if it's not weather induced or magnetosphere or ionophere induced, it's induced by a resonance of multiple inverters in close proximity feeding off themselves and falling into a sci-fi feedback loop.

Hate to say it, because I support renewable energy and moving away from fossil fuels, but this seems all too plausible if you only know enough to sound smart repeating it. And kinda funny in a way Al Gore could never have predicted.

It can be probably blamed on green energy. Or at least the touchiness of its transfer system.

Thanks for the concise and understandable explanation. You would make an excellent teacher...

My Sim City always had wind farms... LOL, but it's an industry that has lots of promise and some issues.  Just disposing of the huge, always-deteriorating fan "blades" has become problematic

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2...down-side/

We can blame this partly on our immaturity in making green energy scalable. This is a learning experience and a work in progress, the natural course of human advancement. Except now, both sides have no problem applauding every setback instead of finding solutions. 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/28/world/win...index.html

Is this resonance oscillation problem solvable is all that matters. Everybody pays for energy so that it will be reliable and stable. We have to find a balance between old and new tech. If we had the same outage in the US, in this political atmosphere, the tone would be completely different

Nothing but early morning thoughts...

Semi-ironic that the billions in funding from Middle East "oil" countries that "influence" the universities of the world, and we still aren't knowledgeable enough to anticipate these scalability issues of solar and wind green energy.
His mind was not for rent to any god or government
Always hopeful yet discontent, knows changes aren't permanent
But change is 
Professor Neil Ellwood Peart 
 
[Image: PEART-2744335652.gif]

 
#97
(04-30-2025, 06:15 AM)putnam6 Wrote: Semi-ironic that the billions in funding from Middle East "oil" countries that "influence" the universities of the world, and we still aren't knowledgeable enough to anticipate these scalability issues of solar and wind green energy.

I don't think it was a scalability issue, as Spain was using 100% renewable sources a few days before without any problem, until now the explanation I find more likely is the one I posted above, that the newer solar power plants were connected to the grid without having good or correctly configured inverters.
#98
(04-30-2025, 06:27 AM)ArMaP Wrote: I don't think it was a scalability issue, as Spain was using 100% renewable sources a few days before without any problem, until now the explanation I find more likely is the one I posted above, that the newer solar power plants were connected to the grid without having good or correctly configured inverters.


Yeah, most people's reliability scale for nationwide power generation for first-world countries isn't measured in days, I believe it was 12 days since it went full green? 

If it were scalable as configured, it wouldn't have failed in 12 days after going full green. Respectfully...

This might work for the more tolerant Portugal and Spain...

You've figured out the problem, yet none of the green energy engineers at REN could anticipate a potential problem? Seems like a disconnect. 

Why were the first words "we don't know the cause"?

Why didn't they have "good" or correctly configured inverters?

Was all of Europe that close, or is this just sensationalistic journalism? 


 
Quote:Michael Shellenberger:
Quote:This is truly bananas: all of Europe appears to have been seconds away a continent-wide blackout.
The grid frequency across continental Europe plunged to 49.85 hertz — just a hair above the red-line collapse threshold.
The normal operating frequency for Europe’s power grid is 50.00 Hz, kept with an extremely tight margin of ±0.1 Hz. Anything outside ±0.2 Hz triggers major emergency actions.
If the frequency had fallen just another 0.3 Hz — below 49.5 Hz — Europe could have suffered a system-wide cascading blackout.
At that threshold, automatic protective relays disconnect major power plants, and collapse accelerates.
And it’s disturbingly easy to imagine multiple scenarios where that could have occurred…
[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gpo_YIkbEAIS...ame=medium]

Renewables don’t risk blackouts, said the media. But they did and they do. The physics are simple. And now, as blackouts in Spain strand people in elevators, jam traffic, and ground flights, it’s clear that too little “inertia” due to excess solar resulted in system collapse.
Quote:[Image: https://denyignorance.com/uploader/image...51-206.jpg]
His mind was not for rent to any god or government
Always hopeful yet discontent, knows changes aren't permanent
But change is 
Professor Neil Ellwood Peart 
 
[Image: PEART-2744335652.gif]

 
#99
(04-30-2025, 06:50 AM)putnam6 Wrote: Yeah, most people's reliability scale for nationwide power generation for first-world countries isn't measured in days, I believe it was 12 days since it went full green? 

I was talking about scalability, not reliability.

Quote:If it were scalable as configured, it wouldn't have failed in 12 days after going full green.

As far as I understand it, it didn't go "full green" for 12 days, it was "full green" 12 days ago.

Quote:You've figured out the problem, yet none of the green energy engineers at REN could anticipate a potential problem? Seems like a disconnect. 

I didn't figure out any thing, what I posted was a comment from a CEO of a company that makes solar power plants.
If it was really a question of not having good or correctly configured inverters I suppose they didn't anticipate it because they thought any company connecting to the grid or any organisation that oversees the grid would have controls implemented to prevent that.

Quote:Why were the first words "we don't know the cause"?

That would be my answer if I didn't know the cause.

Quote:Why didn't they have "good" or correctly configured inverters?

According to that CEO I mentioned, because those companies wanted to start selling electricity as soon as possible, in one word, greed.
(04-30-2025, 07:29 AM)ArMaP Wrote: I was talking about scalability, not reliability.


As far as I understand it, it didn't go "full green" for 12 days, it was "full green" 12 days ago.


I didn't figure out any thing, what I posted was a comment from a CEO of a company that makes solar power plants.
If it was really a question of not having good or correctly configured inverters I suppose they didn't anticipate it because they thought any company connecting to the grid or any organisation that oversees the grid would have controls implemented to prevent that.


That would be my answer if I didn't know the cause.


According to that CEO I mentioned, because those companies wanted to start selling electricity as soon as possible, in one word, greed.

We are arguing semantics. #1,
Agree to disagree
You say it's scalable, I suggest it isn't, or it wouldn't have failed.

Reliability and scalability go hand in hand. 

Im just discussing this, however, Im happily glowing in a state with a robust power grid connected to nuclear power.

In your opinion, is this sensationalistic journalism...

https://revolver.news/2025/04/theyre-hid...-blackout/
Quote: 
Michael Shellenberger:
Quote:This is truly bananas: all of Europe appears to have been seconds away a continent-wide blackout.
The grid frequency across continental Europe plunged to 49.85 hertz — just a hair above the red-line collapse threshold.
The normal operating frequency for Europe’s power grid is 50.00 Hz, kept with an extremely tight margin of ±0.1 Hz. Anything outside ±0.2 Hz triggers major emergency actions.
If the frequency had fallen just another 0.3 Hz — below 49.5 Hz — Europe could have suffered a system-wide cascading blackout.
At that threshold, automatic protective relays disconnect major power plants, and collapse accelerates.
And it’s disturbingly easy to imagine multiple scenarios where that could have occurred…
[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gpo_YIkbEAIS...ame=medium]


Renewables don’t risk blackouts, said the media. But they did and they do. The physics are simple. And now, as blackouts in Spain strand people in elevators, jam traffic, and ground flights, it’s clear that too little “inertia” due to excess solar resulted in system collapse.
His mind was not for rent to any god or government
Always hopeful yet discontent, knows changes aren't permanent
But change is 
Professor Neil Ellwood Peart 
 
[Image: PEART-2744335652.gif]

 



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