Charlie Kirk shot at an event in Utah

[andy06shake]

No, but it shows a massive hole in the data. Statistics are not facts (I'm a data scientist).  ADL is a far-left source, so that is understandable. The glaring part missing in this is everything after 2020.  The explosion of trans/lgbt violence obviously left out. 2016 is another glaring example. Pulse nightclub - radical gay shoots up 49 people.  The presentation of the data is grossly misleading at best.  This is an example of ADL cherry-picking what constitutes 'violent acts', and presenting it all in the most misleading way. 

Yes, historically right-wing extremists were lumped as the shooters, but going back as far as Columbine there has been a trend (gay antifa shooters) that implied 'automatic weapons == right wing".  The newer trend is disaffected lgbt.

You can argue all you want, but either half the US was psychic in predicting a leftist pro-trans linked agenda, or there's an acutal trend. Which is it? Psychic?

Then you should be able to present data to show this newer trend.

I tend to agree that left-wing politically motivated attacks are indeed on the rise.

But historically, and as the data clearly shows, it's extreme right-wing types that commit far more attacks. 

There is not really any argument about the facts that stretch back over a few decades.

[Halfswede]

I thought the texts sounded rather strange.

But that's probably because im not from the area.

Like you suggest, if it were faked, the boyfriend could confirm such.

By the looks of it he was not home-schooled.

He seems to have attended public schools in the local district.

Specifically, "Pine View Middle School" and "Pine View High School."

To me it is either the most inept attempt, which while corrupt, the FBI would do better, or it's just an odd kid who was well-educated. I believe they indicated he was.

[WallFlowerActive]

The explosion of trans/lgbt violence obviously left out. 2016 is another glaring example. Pulse nightclub - radical gay shoots up 49 people.  The presentation of the data is grossly misleading at best. 

Thank you for remembering the victims where I forgot.

[MalevolentTwitch]

No, i meant any amendment as i said.

The 1st was simply the one i was responding to and used as example.

You see, crazy people dont care about those. 

Probably best to actually read the previous post.

As to being wrong.

The data consistently shows that far-right extremists commit far more politically motivated gun violence than far-left in your nation, which is just a statistic.

[Image: https://denyignorance.com/uploader/image...564365.jpg]

And reports from the "Center for Strategic and International Studies", "The Anti-Defamation League", and the "FBI."

Indicate that right-wing extremists have been responsible for the overwhelming majority of politically motivated fatal attacks in recent decades.

You will simply have to deal with those facts im afraid even if you do find them somewhat unpalatable. 

Or present some of your own that show otherwise.

https://www.adl.org/resources/report/mur...tates-2022
https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating...ted-states
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/rig...ted-states

So, having read the articles you posted thoroughly, I have to note a couple of things here. Down at the bottom of your first ADL link, it specifically states the following;

"....For example, white supremacists, who often display many racist and white supremacist tattoos, or who may be documented as white supremacists by gang investigators or corrections officials, are often easily identifiable. In contrast, it may be more difficult for police or media to identify a suspect’s anti-government extremist associations. This issue comes up more often with non-ideological killings. It is likely that non-ideological murders committed by extremists other than white supremacists are underrepresented in ADL’s data..."

In the csis link you provided, it states;

"....First, right-wing terrorism refers to the use or threat of violence by sub-national or non-state entities whose goals may include racial or ethnic supremacy; opposition to government authority; anger at women, including from the incel (“involuntary celibate”) movement; and outrage against certain policies, such as abortion.[sup]6[/sup] This analysis uses the term “right-wing terrorism” rather than “racially- and ethnically-motivated violent extremism,” or REMVE, which is used by some in the U.S. government.[sup]7[/sup] Second, left-wing terrorism involves the use or threat of violence by sub-national or non-state entities that oppose capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism; pursue environmental or animal rights issues; espouse pro-communist or pro-socialist beliefs; or support a decentralized social and political system such as anarchism...."

In the second ADL link, it states;

"...Significant violent acts traditionally associated with terrorism include bombings or use of other weapons of mass destruction, assassinations and targeted killings, shooting sprees, arsons and fire-bombings, kidnappings and hostage situations and, in some cases, armed robberies...."

But then goes onto say;

"...These definitions exclude acts of spontaneous, unplanned violence — such as an anti-government sovereign citizen becoming angry and shooting a police officer who pulled him or her over for a traffic stop — as well as mere threats, such as someone posting an online threat to burn down a mosque or synagogue."

and then;

"...One incident on the list is particularly complicated: the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol. Over a thousand arrests have been made so far in connection with this event, including several sets of arrests of people charged with conspiracy or seditious conspiracy. These include cases involving the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers and other militia groups. For simplicity’s sake, these serious cases are counted in this analysis as one combined incident rather than as separate incidents."


So what I gather from this, according to what you've cited, Jan 6th was a "Right Wing Terrorist" event, but the recent roiting, looting, etc... in LA, somehow, wasn't a "Left Wing Terrorist" event...

[andy06shake]

Then what where the “right wing” attacks and the actual charges?

it’s from 2019.  But this case is clear example.

Are the figures reported?  Or actual convictions?

Stuff like this happens?

Are the stats you used just off allegations?  Or actual proven cases by a court of law?  Are they ever adjusted when cases are found to be hoaxes?  Or they just a bunch of figures people can call in and pad by just making claims that never have to be proven in anyway?

If you would simply go and read the links presented, you would see where the information comes from, so not hoaxes, just data and facts.

What were "the “right wing” attacks and the actual charges" from when? 

In 2019, the U.S. witnessed several devastating attacks attributed to right-wing extremists.

The El Paso Walmart and Poway synagogue shootings being the most prominent. 

Charges would seem to include Capital murder and federal hate crimes.

[Halfswede]

Then you should be able to present data to show this newer trend.

I tend to agree that left-wing politically motivated attacks are indeed on the rise.

But historically, and as the data clearly shows, it's extreme right-wing types that commit far more attacks. 

There is not really any argument about the facts that stretch back over a few decades.

It was a direct argument about the 'facts'.  I pointed out a second year 2016 where 49 people were killed by a single lgbt gunman, yet the graph implies far more were killed by right wing extremists.  It's the presentation of data and the fact that 'violent act' is not defined that makes it pretty useless. It implies killing without actually declaring it. I'm not saying there isn't data behind it, but it doesn't really support anything as it stands.  Add those details and it becomes more 'factual'.

[andy06shake]

So, having read the articles you posted thoroughly, I have to note a couple of things here. Down at the bottom of your first ADL link, it specifically states the following;

"....For example, white supremacists, who often display many racist and white supremacist tattoos, or who may be documented as white supremacists by gang investigators or corrections officials, are often easily identifiable. In contrast, it may be more difficult for police or media to identify a suspect’s anti-government extremist associations. This issue comes up more often with non-ideological killings. It is likely that non-ideological murders committed by extremists other than white supremacists are underrepresented in ADL’s data..."

In the csis link you provided, it states;

"....First, right-wing terrorism refers to the use or threat of violence by sub-national or non-state entities whose goals may include racial or ethnic supremacy; opposition to government authority; anger at women, including from the incel (“involuntary celibate”) movement; and outrage against certain policies, such as abortion.[sup]6[/sup] This analysis uses the term “right-wing terrorism” rather than “racially- and ethnically-motivated violent extremism,” or REMVE, which is used by some in the U.S. government.[sup]7[/sup] Second, left-wing terrorism involves the use or threat of violence by sub-national or non-state entities that oppose capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism; pursue environmental or animal rights issues; espouse pro-communist or pro-socialist beliefs; or support a decentralized social and political system such as anarchism...."

In the second ADL link, it states;

"...Significant violent acts traditionally associated with terrorism include bombings or use of other weapons of mass destruction, assassinations and targeted killings, shooting sprees, arsons and fire-bombings, kidnappings and hostage situations and, in some cases, armed robberies...."

But then goes onto say;

"...These definitions exclude acts of spontaneous, unplanned violence — such as an anti-government sovereign citizen becoming angry and shooting a police officer who pulled him or her over for a traffic stop — as well as mere threats, such as someone posting an online threat to burn down a mosque or synagogue."

and then;

"...One incident on the list is particularly complicated: the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol. Over a thousand arrests have been made so far in connection with this event, including several sets of arrests of people charged with conspiracy or seditious conspiracy. These include cases involving the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers and other militia groups. For simplicity’s sake, these serious cases are counted in this analysis as one combined incident rather than as separate incidents."


So what I gather from this, according to what you've cited, Jan 6th was a "Right Wing Terrorist" event, but the recent roiting, looting, etc... in LA, somehow, wasn't a "Left Wing Terrorist" event...

The comparison doesn't really hold up.

The reports define terrorism as planned, politically motivated violence, not random crimes or looting.

The LA unrest was mostly opportunistic looting and chaotic violence, not a coordinated left-wing plot, so it doesn't meet that definition.

January 6 was different, organised, planned, and aimed at government institutions.

Which is why it counts as right-wing terrorism.

Both ADL and CSIS make the same distinction for all sides.

So it's not about bias it's just how they define what counts as terrorism versus random or spontaneous crimes.

[andy06shake]

It was a direct argument about the 'facts'.  I pointed out a second year 2016 where 49 people were killed by a single lgbt gunman, yet the graph implies far more were killed by right wing extremists.  It's the presentation of data and the fact that 'violent act' is not defined that makes it pretty useless. It implies killing without actually declaring it. I'm not saying there isn't data behind it, but it doesn't really support anything as it stands.  Add those details and it becomes more 'factual'.

The 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting is included as a single event, not repeated in yearly totals, which explains why graphs may show fewer left-wing deaths.

And she's not even correct about 2017.

Where right-wing extremists committed the majority of terrorist attacks, according to ADL and CSIS data.

Most incidents were committed by white supremacists that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottes...car_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_...y_Caughman
https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/...ted-murder

[MalevolentTwitch]

"The LA unrest was mostly opportunistic looting and chaotic violence, not a coordinated left-wing plot, so it doesn't meet that definition."

The protests in LA were, in fact, planned... Regardless, it does still prove my point though. If we are talking about violence and extremism, it must include all violence and extremism. Anything less is cherry picking to fit a narrative.

[quintessentone]

Well, ya know -- I've been around awhile.  I was a senior in high school when the Civil Rights Act was signed.  It still blows my mind that that happened in my lifetime.

My thoughts were actually about open communication and counseling -- reminiscent of the Gay movement.  Do you listen to your kid?  Do you honestly hear your kid?  Is your kid free to come to you about anything?

I was Mormon for 5 years.  It is a family/neighbors lifestyle -- you live it 24/7.  It's almost like a safe cocoon.  He probably was not exposed to other ways of life until he got to college.  I'd say he's probably a bit naive.

But in his writings to his roommate he flat out says Hate was the reason he did it.

That's a lot of talking for me.  I'm gonna go back to my short comments now :)

Yes, he did tell anyone that would listen that stopping the spread of hate was the reason he did it.

Edit to add:

It's difficult to know if he was in a protected and safe cocoon with his family but then ventured out into the online world where the ideologies and political leanings of all people are there for the learning. It sure seems that he is naive and emotionally immature to do what he did alone, and I believe he did it alone because nobody online knew anything about his intentions, and Discord investigation revealed nothing.