Plane crash in philidelphia.

[putnam6]

They were doing a climbing turn into a cloud deck. There was no visible horizon or lights for them to see. They have instruments, but by the time GPWS went off they wouldn’t have had time to recover at that speed.

Im not suggesting they could recover, or that the pilot wasn't disoriented, but such a deep dive so quickly suggests mechanical failure 

This pilot had flown MedeVac for 9 years. It's hard to believe he wasn't aware that the plane was in a dive, I assume cutting back the engines is one of the first things on the pilot's to-do list when they are in a dive. 


Hopefully, we find out more info from the data and voice recorder

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/...-dive.html

[Zaphod58]

Im not suggesting they could recover, or that the pilot wasn't disoriented, but such a deep dive so quickly suggests mechanical failure 

This pilot had flown MedeVac for 9 years. It's hard to believe he wasn't aware that the plane was in a dive, I assume cutting back the engines is one of the first things on the pilot's to-do list when they are in a dive. 


Hopefully, we find out more info from the data and voice recorder

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/...-dive.html

It's called spatial disorientation. You don't KNOW you're in a dive. It doesn't matter how many years you've been flying. Far more experienced pilots than this have fallen victim to spatial disorientation. The crew here had 8700 hours and 2600 hours. CRX498 had a Captain with 8100 hours, and a First Officer with 1800 hours. FSH604 had a Captain with 7500 hours. KQA507 had a Captain with 8500 hours. Spatial disorientation can happen to any pilot, regardless of experience or time in the seat.

[putnam6]

It's called spatial disorientation. You don't KNOW you're in a dive. It doesn't matter how many years you've been flying. Far more experienced pilots than this have fallen victim to spatial disorientation. The crew here had 8700 hours and 2600 hours. CRX498 had a Captain with 8100 hours, and a First Officer with 1800 hours. FSH604 had a Captain with 7500 hours. KQA507 had a Captain with 8500 hours. Spatial disorientation can happen to any pilot, regardless of experience or time in the seat.

Zaphod, I understand the definition of spatial disorientation and that it happens to the best of them I read and saw The Right Stuff as a kid.

Im saying disoriented or not I find it hard to believe nobody, pilot or copilot, didn't take a peek at the altimeter while they were disorientated during the most dangerous part of modern flight. 

We aren't talking about flying at altitude for an hour and are slowly pitching over. 

How is it one can feel every movement as a passenger on a turboprop for instance and feel when you angle nose down to land in the valley between 2 mountains at a much lower angle than the pilot of the lear jet which looks awful close to 60 degrees



I know the Intelligencer article touches on the basics but they aren't wrong there are 3 other possibilities. 

[Zaphod58]

Zaphod, I understand the definition of spatial disorientation and that it happens to the best of them I read and saw The Right Stuff as a kid.

Im saying disoriented or not I find it hard to believe nobody, pilot or copilot, didn't take a peek at the altimeter while they were disorientated during the most dangerous part of modern flight. 

We aren't talking about flying at altitude for an hour and are slowly pitching over. 

How is it one can feel every movement as a passenger on a turboprop for instance and feel when you angle nose down to land in the valley  between 2 mountains at a much lower angle does the pilot

I know the Intelligencer article touches on the basics but they aren't wrong there are 3 other possibilities. 

That's how you get into a bad place with spatial disorientation, You are looking outside, and not at your instruments. If you were looking at your instruments you wouldn't have gotten into that position. You feel the Gs, but you don't believe it. Your body is telling you one thing, and your ear is telling you another. Which do you believe?

[putnam6]

That's how you get into a bad place with spatial disorientation, You are looking outside, and not at your instruments. If you were looking at your instruments you wouldn't have gotten into that position. You feel the Gs, but you don't believe it. Your body is telling you one thing, and your ear is telling you another. Which do you believe?

Yeah again I understand what spatial disorientation is and how it occurs...

This flight was minutes old the process of taking off requires pulling back on the "yoke" or column. Isn't that the opposite where you must push forward a lot to have a 60-degree dive angle?  

We will see what the NTSB says in its report,

[Zaphod58]

Yeah again I understand what spatial disorientation is and how it occurs...

This flight was minutes old the process of taking off requires pulling back on the "yoke" or column. Isn't that the opposite where you must push forward a lot to have a 60-degree dive angle?  

We will see what the NTSB says in its report,

And when you’re in clouds your ear is telling you that you’re pulling back too far, so you push forward to reduce the climb angle.

[putnam6]

And when you’re in clouds your ear is telling you that you’re pulling back too far, so you push forward to reduce the climb angle.

They were at 1600' isn't that way too low for overt and obvious changes in ear pressure? 

Wouldnt ATC be directing them to thier cruising altitude  

9 years of piloting a MedeVac and the pilot forgets what this is? 



This one bothers me water temps 32 degrees 
 

 
[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/132...bigger.jpg]
Flightradar24

@flightradar24

Local media are reporting a Bering Air flight is overdue at Nome and search & rescue efforts are now underway. #8E445 departed Unalakleet at 23:38 UTC (14:38 local) Last position received at 00:16 UTC 64.330212, -164.02679 5,300 feet https://flightradar24.com/data/flights/8e445#39086384

[Zaphod58]

They were at 1600' isn't that way too low for overt and obvious changes in ear pressure? 

Wouldnt ATC be directing them to thier cruising altitude  

9 years of piloting a MedeVac and the pilot forgets what this is? 
[Image: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/...ipo=images]


This one bothers me water temps 32 degrees 
 

No, it isn’t. It’s not the pressure change that causes it. Spin around a bunch of times in a chair and try hold yourself up straight. It has nothing to do with pressure and everything to do with the fluid in your ear.


Spatial disorientation occurs when you either don’t trust your instruments, or aren’t looking at them for whatever reason.

[putnam6]

No, it isn’t. It’s not the pressure change that causes it. Spin around a bunch of times in a chair and try hold yourself up straight. It has nothing to do with pressure and everything to do with the fluid in your ear.


Spatial disorientation occurs when you either don’t trust your instruments, or aren’t looking at them for whatever reason.

Are you suggesting the Learjet was spinning? 

LOL I know you aren't BTW

but I still think there were other causes here and even if there was spatial disorientation it was likely a contributing factor, there was something else mechanical, a disturbance on the plane, etc.

If not it had to be the world's quickest onset of spatial disorientation to hit a pilot and copilot simultaneously 

 

The Learjet 55, operated by Jet Rescue Air Ambulance, crashed less than 30 seconds after takeoff. Seven people lost their lives—all six individuals aboard the aircraft and one person in a vehicle on the ground—while at least 24 others sustained injuries.

Investigators are currently examining multiple potential causes, including adverse weather conditions, possible medical issues among crew members, and technical or mechanical problems with the aircraft.

 On 31 January. The flight departed at approximately 23:06:16 UTC (18:06 local time) bound for Springfield, Missouri (SGF | KSGF). Within a minute the flight crashed less than three miles from the end of the runway. The FAA reports there were six people on board
 
Investigative updates2 February 2025The NTSB says it has recovered the cockpit voice recorder from the Learjet. It was found at the initial impact site, 8 feet below ground level. Investigators have also recovered the Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS), which they say could also yield helpful data.

[Zaphod58]

Are you suggesting the Learjet was spinning? 

LOL I know you aren't BTW

but I still think there were other causes here and even if there was spatial disorientation it was likely a contributing factor, there was something else mechanical, a disturbance on the plane, etc.

If not it had to be the world's quickest onset of spatial disorientation to hit a pilot and copilot simultaneously 

 

It only has to affect one. Only one pilot is actually flying, and at 1600 feet it needs to be recognized quickly. Spatial disorientation isn’t slow. It can affect you almost as soon as you enter clouds.