Columbia University has fallen

[FlyingClayDisk]

*sigh*

Let me put it another way then, how can I hate hamas and not hate palestinians (who are hamas)?

*sigh*

How can you not see the difference between terrorists and ordinary people?

Do the Palestinians let Hamas speak for them?  Yes, they do.  Is this right?  No, it is not.  I've said it a million times, Hamas are terrorists.  If the Palestinians want statehood then there can be NO, zero, terrorists amongst them.  This is an absolute condition.  And, it should be the condition of any deal in the future.  Hamas are terrorists.  Palestinians just want to live.

So, you have two choices...squeeze Hamas with pressure for Palestinian statehood, OR...kill everyone.  Netanyahu has chosen the latter, but NOT because of Hamas (and this is key here), but rather because he has stated Palestinians will "never, ever" have statehood until the 'last drop of Jewish blood'.  Hamas has nothing to do with it; Hamas be damned.  This is why Netanyahu needs to go.

Show me one...single...example where Netanyahu has said Palestinians are entitled to statehood, just one.  You can't, because he's never said this.  He has said the zionist role is to expel/exterminate all Arabs from Palestine.  Just show me one...single...example.  Netanyahu doesn't want peace, he wants extermination.

edit - Timothy McVeigh was a white anglo-saxon male.  He was also a terrorist.  Are all of his neighbor's terrorists?  No.  Is the entire state he comes from terrorist?  No.
Yes, there are more Hamas terrorists than just one person, but the principle is the same...not all of them are terrorists, and the only reason terrorist activity exists in the region is because of Israel's ever advancing armada, pushing Palestinians further and further into a corner they have no way out of (which is exactly what Netanyahu wants...extermination).

I understand your point of view, but can you possibly understand this 'reality' point of view. 

I hate terrorists more than most people, but I'm also not blind.

[putnam6]

Ironically, it's a PR trap indeed, but one set by the Israelis themselves.  I know this seems odd to you, but it's true.

Regarding Iran; Iran wants to see the end of FAR more than Israel.  Iran is an evil terrorist state.  They're (Iran) just wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth that Israel gives them the excuse to execute their larger plans.

Seriously, and with all due respect, do you think Israel is capable of bringing Hezbollah into line...without outside intervention?  Trust me, it's not possible for Israel, and it's certainly not possible if Iran enjoins the fight.  Netanyahu is barking up the wrong tree; he is crazed with his own political survival, and he is willing to take millions of Jews down with him.  How is this so difficult for you to see?  Sure, throw the tired old "ANTI-SEMITIC" label at me, BUT, I don't want to see Jews OR Israel die.  And this is exactly what will happen unless Israel does not get rid of Netanyahu.  He has vowed his life to never allow Palestinian settlement, no matter where it lands; "Not a single grain of sand", he's said; he's crazed about it.  His political career depends on it...but only his.  He is ignorant of the Jewish people.  How can you not see this????  How can you defend this man who wants NO peace? 

Go ahead, say I am pro-Hamas (I am not, but go ahead and say that).  Say I am anti-Semite, and anti-Israel (I am neither of those things, but go ahead and say it).  Call me whatever names you wish, but I am none of those things (unless honest observer is one of them).  I do not wish doom on the Israeli people, they are kind and generous.  They are good people.  Netanyahu, on the other hand, is in this for only one thing, and that is his political 'skin', and his own ego.

Netanyahu needs to go!

No fan of Netanyahu FCD, but he likely wont get the chance to risk your hyperbolic million Jewish lives, once Gaza is over he is likely over. Perhaps even sooner once the fate of the remaining hostages is determined. 

but forget all that because we have two esteemed members just going back and forth, So let's do a different approach. 

What's your vision? what should happen now, how do we stop the madness?  I want to hear the same from DB too

I don't know much about Netanyahu. I just want those hostages back and Hamas gone.

Generally Im fine with a Palestinian state the question is not only where? but I am under no illusion, once established is Israel more or less secure? I'd would imagine a Palestinian state's Israel position would mimic Iran's, Hezbollah's

[FlyingClayDisk]

No fan of Netanyahu FCD, but he likely wont get the chance to risk your hyperbolic million Jewish lives, once Gaza is over he is likely over. Perhaps even sooner once the fate of the remaining hostages is determined. 

but forget all that because we have two esteemed members just going back and forth, So let's do a different approach. 

What's your vision? what should happen now, how do we stop the madness?  I want to hear the same from DB too

I don't know much about Netanyahu. I just want those hostages back and Hamas gone.

Generally Im fine with a Palestinian state the question is not only where? but I am under no illusion, once established is Israel more or less secure? I'd would imagine a Palestinian state's Israel position would mimic Iran's, Hezbollah's

Fair question.

Me: Netanyahu needs to go (broken record, I know).  Then, in his place, leadership which is at least willing to accept even the "concept" of Palestinian statehood (forget the boundaries for a moment).  Gantz is this person (I believe).  He's not a liberal, and he is a hardliner (former IDF general).  Israel as a culture doesn't respond well to radical change right away (this is not a slight on Israel, many cultures are like this), but Gantz is a man of reason, and he's good at diplomacy.  He's not the final solution, but he's a step in the right direction.  Israel won't get all the way there with him, and Israel should NOT roll over on any of this (that has never been my point).  Israel has the higher moral ground, but only a little bit.  They have the higher moral ground only in that they never let terrorists infiltrate their masses.  Beyond this, Israel is the aggressor.  But Israel can use this higher moral ground as a position of strength in negotiations (not to 'win' but to maintain dignity and sovereign ground).

From there, Hamas will not disappear overnight.  This would be foolish to believe, but their strength will be diminished daily as both sides obey the terms of their agreement.  Again, it won't happen overnight, but in time the Palestinians will see that their greater destiny is in sovereign land, not through terrorist insurgency, and thus Hamas will be increasingly isolated.  Israel can 'save face" by not yielding to terrorism via the internationally accepted rules of engagement over terrorism, and respond (RESPONSIBLY) accordingly. 

Hezbollah will always be a threat to the state of Israel, but they should not be confused with Hamas.  They have different agendas.  Hezbollah is not going away anytime soon, they are too well funded by Iran, but again, they are not Hamas.  Hamas, in time, becomes an outsider.  Palestinians have a homeland (however big or small that is), and they risk losing it in the eyes of the international community by welcoming terrorists into their mix.  In other words, now they have something very valuable to lose, whereas today they have nothing to lose (other than bodies).

This would be my suggested approach based on my fairly thoroughly researched posture on the culture, the people, the religions, the history, and the region.

It will be interesting to hear other viewpoints.  I wonder how they could be anything other than...kill them all.

I try to never complain about something without at least an idea of a reasonable alternative.

I will look forward to other replies.

[DBCowboy]

No fan of Netanyahu FCD, but he likely wont get the chance to risk your hyperbolic million Jewish lives, once Gaza is over he is likely over. Perhaps even sooner once the fate of the remaining hostages is determined. 

but forget all that because we have two esteemed members just going back and forth, So let's do a different approach. 

What's your vision? what should happen now, how do we stop the madness?  I want to hear the same from DB too

I don't know much about Netanyahu. I just want those hostages back and Hamas gone.

Generally Im fine with a Palestinian state the question is not only where? but I am under no illusion, once established is Israel more or less secure? I'd would imagine a Palestinian state's Israel position would mimic Iran's, Hezbollah's

You win a war by overwhelming force.  By killing more of them than they kill of you.

You don't do it by winning hearts and minds.

You crush the enemy.  You cause them so much pain that they surrender.  That they promise never to do it again.


You kill them all, piss on the corpses, salt the earth and move on.

[FlyingClayDisk]

You win a war by overwhelming force.  By killing more of them than they kill of you.

You don't do it by winning hearts and minds.

You crush the enemy.  You cause them so much pain that they surrender.  That they promise never to do it again.


You kill them all, piss on the corpses, salt the earth and move on.

So, your solution, as I suspected is...Kill them all.

Okay, I guess we will agree to disagree and let God sort them out.

[DBCowboy]

So, your solution, as I suspected is...Kill them all.

Okay, I guess we will agree to disagree and let God sort them out.

If they surrender, return the living hostages, and acknowledge Israel as a sovereign state, then no more killing.

SO you tell me.

Who wants more killing?

[FlyingClayDisk]

If they surrender, return the living hostages, and acknowledge Israel as a sovereign state, then no more killing.

SO you tell me.

Who wants more killing?

I offered my solution.  You offered yours.

What would you like me to tell you? 

I obviously believe my suggested solution results in far lesser lives lost, and you seemingly take exception to that viewpoint.

It's not for me to say.  I stand by my solution.

And...if I were Al Thani (of Qatar) (which I am not), this is where I would start my negotiations.  Because, surely you know this is where the serious negotiations will begin, right?  With Qatar? 

Palestinians: Lay down your weapons, and divest your people of Hamas.  Stop any further attacks.  In return you will be granted statehood.  Release any hostages you have as a goodwill gesture, and expect the same in return.  You have to go first because you do not occupy the higher moral ground, and you know it.

Israel: Lay down your weapons, and cede all further advances into Mandatory Palestine.  Release your hostages.  You are a sovereign nation already, so act like one, else lose the respect of the World community.  Your leader risks your reputation on the World stage.  Know this and conduct yourselves accordingly.

That's the 'short' version, but you get the idea.

I can just about guarantee you this is what the Qatari deal will be.  And, anyone who walks away from that table will be the loser in the eyes of the civilized world.

And yours?  "CHARGE!!  Fire at will!  Kill them ALL!!" (??)

Fair enough.  You know my position, and I (think) I know yours.

[DBCowboy]

I offered my solution.  You offered yours.

What would you like me to tell you? 

I obviously believe my suggested solution results in far lesser lives lost, and you seemingly take exception to that viewpoint.

It's not for me to say.  I stand by my solution.

And...if I were Al Thani (of Qatar) (which I am not), this is where I would start my negotiations.  Because, surely you know this is where the serious negotiations will begin, right?  With Qatar? 

Palestinians: Lay down your weapons, and divest your people of Hamas.  Stop any further attacks.  In return you will be granted statehood.  Release any hostages you have as a goodwill gesture, and expect the same in return.  You have to go first because you do not occupy the higher moral ground, and you know it.

Israel: Lay down your weapons, and cede all further advances into Mandatory Palestine.  Release your hostages.  You are a sovereign nation already, so act like one, else lose the respect of the World community.  Your leader risks your reputation on the World stage.  Know this and conduct yourselves accordingly.

That's the 'short' version, but you get the idea.

I can just about guarantee you this is what the Qatari deal will be.  And, anyone who walks away from that table will be the loser in the eyes of the civilized world.

And yours?  "CHARGE!!  Fire at will!  Kill them ALL!!" (??)

Fair enough.  You know my position, and I (think) I know yours.

You don't win wars though appeasement, Chamberlain taught us that.

You win wars by defeating the thought that they can win.

---

I offered my solution.  You offered yours.

What would you like me to tell you? 

I obviously believe my suggested solution results in far lesser lives lost, and you seemingly take exception to that viewpoint.

It's not for me to say.  I stand by my solution.

And...if I were Al Thani (of Qatar) (which I am not), this is where I would start my negotiations.  Because, surely you know this is where the serious negotiations will begin, right?  With Qatar? 

Palestinians: Lay down your weapons, and divest your people of Hamas.  Stop any further attacks.  In return you will be granted statehood.  Release any hostages you have as a goodwill gesture, and expect the same in return.  You have to go first because you do not occupy the higher moral ground, and you know it.

Israel: Lay down your weapons, and cede all further advances into Mandatory Palestine.  Release your hostages.  You are a sovereign nation already, so act like one, else lose the respect of the World community.  Your leader risks your reputation on the World stage.  Know this and conduct yourselves accordingly.

That's the 'short' version, but you get the idea.

I can just about guarantee you this is what the Qatari deal will be.  And, anyone who walks away from that table will be the loser in the eyes of the civilized world.

And yours?  "CHARGE!!  Fire at will!  Kill them ALL!!" (??)

Fair enough.  You know my position, and I (think) I know yours.

Do you think that palestinians should surrender?

[FlyingClayDisk]

Do you think that palestinians should surrender?

I don't think anyone should "surrender", honestly.

Equally, I don't think anyone will ever surrender, on either side.

The expectation of unconditional surrender is not realistic and will only make this conflict drag on longer.

DB, you have said you understand these cultures, but I am beginning to question that.  If you truly understood these two cultures you would know that 'saving face' is right up there with about the most unimaginable loss of honor that a society and culture could ever have.  They will never "surrender"...ever.  They will spill every last drop of their blood before they 'surrender'.  You know this, right?  So, how could you ask me such a question?

The Palestinians, the Israelis, the Muslims, the Jews...they will never, ever, ever...ever...surrender.  

They've been fighting for 2,000 years, 'surrender' is just not in their DNA at this point.

C'mon, man, all due respect, but don't be silly.

[Maxmars]

*sigh*

Let me put it another way then, how can I hate hamas and not hate palestinians (who are hamas)?

(I hope this doesn't come off as I haven't intended it.)

Perhaps your assessment of the situation regarding Hamas isn't necessarily "about" Palestinians.  (And "hate" is a strong sentiment, often more than reality accommodates.)

Being born Palestinian can't possibly be "a criminal" thing.   Nor can being born Israeli.

If you can accept that, from this point forward how can we vilify everyone without damaging the innocent?

Israel, and the 'government' of Palestine are not instruments of the people, anymore than our government is.  They are supposed to be... but only a fool would simply assert they are in this day and age.  Their "decision-making" bodies operate according to (in most cases) the "will" of very few.  The actions governments take (today) are not the "will of the people."  Surely we have learned that by now.

"Hamas" and "Israel" both are guilty of playing stupid games, measuring what destruction and loss of life is "acceptable" or "glorious."  But never are the victims consulted... they are for "show."  The disparity here is between those still listening to the "political" show, and those waging war.. a show stopper.  It's like Ukraine... all about "appearances."  

The original sin, if you wish, are those who "make this happen" from the resort where they gather.  Perpetually untouched by the gore and devastation they cause.

Meanwhile, these young students and their ideological mentors pretend that this is about "awareness."  As if they were "changing" someone's mind about things.  Activism doesn't work like that... it never did.