(11-09-2025, 07:40 PM)Bootless Wrote: Yes it does. Genesis 7 does say that even the highest mountains were covered, up to 6.9 meters above the highest mountains. "All flesh died". "Every living thing was destroyed". Not just local; "...that were under the whole sky."

If you would look at other modern English Bible translations, you would see that they translate "mountains" as "high hills". Why might that be?

Why would "har Meggido" (that we translate to Armageddon), the hill of the ancient city of Meggido, not be a mountain? It is the same Hebrew plural word "har" that is translated as "mountains" in this passage. (Also, why would a battle that takes place in the valley of Meggido get called Armageddon? It's like the KJV and its descendents translators didn't do due dilligence, eh).

And... did all the sea creatures die too? Because that represents a direct textual contradiction. Perhaps what you believe about what the text is saying was not the intention of the authors?

And... you also are assuming that the authors, people just out of the stone age, had a concept of the world beyond what they could directly experience.

Also, the attribution (toledot) of the writers of this account are specifically 'the sons of Noah'. It is their account of what they witnessed - like Abraham, Noah doesn't get a 'toledot' in the Genesis account. Another great patriarch who is missing an alleged personal geneology. LOL.

(11-11-2025, 12:02 PM)3rdrockfrmsun Wrote: https://www.the-express.com/news/world-n...-discovery

For those waiting on ground scans.

That's not a boat! That's a geological formation. 

This type of formation is called a plunging syncline. 

Quote:plunging synclines are primarily caused by compressional warping, but a secondary deformation event warps the already-formed fold's axis, causing it to dip into the earth. Initially, compressional forces squeeze rock layers together, forming the syncline's trough-like shape. Subsequent stress in a different direction then tilts the fold's axis from horizontal to create the plunge. 

Here is a less boat-looking angle.  And it looks even less boat like on Google Earth 



Sheep mountain (below), like the Durupınar Formation (above), are textbook examples of this type of geological folding.



Gotta question the Arc Team, Did they forget their geologists?  Because all they really need is a first semester student to tell them what they are looking at.

(11-11-2025, 02:05 PM)IdeomotorPrisoner Wrote: Gotta question the Arc Team, Did they forget their geologists?  Because all they really need is a first semester student to tell them what they are looking at.

I"m pretty sure none of them are actual geologists or archeologists.

NY Post

Quote:Jones works with Noah’s Ark Scans, which he described as a “loose organization of individuals interested in pursuing scientific work and promoting” the site of the ark.

See that ... just a bunch of people who got together and promote the site as if it were authentically Noahs Ark when in fact it has already been debunked by REAL geologists and archeologists.   They admitted that is their purpose .. to promote the site ... NOT to do actual scientific work to get to the truth of the site, which has already been done by actual scientists.

They are pushing a hoax ... a Ron Wyatt hoax.   Ron Wyatt has been completely debunked.  ALL of his supposed discoveries have been proven frauds.  And even the government of Israel has condemned him over his claims about finding the ark of the covenant under the site Jesus was crucified at, stating that he is not an archeologist, that he never had permission to dig in Israel, and he never did dig.   The Seventh Day Adventist church has also disavowed him because he falsely claimed visions of Jesus were helping him on his 'digs'.   (Ron Wyatt was Seventh Day Adventist).

From GOOGLE AI ASSIST -

The Ron Wyatt "hoax" refers to the extensive claims made by amateur explorer Ron Wyatt (1933-1999) to have discovered numerous major biblical artifacts and locations, all of which have been widely debunked as pseudo-archaeology and fraudulent by professional archaeologists, biblical scholars, and even many creationist organizations. Wyatt, a nurse anesthetist by profession, lacked formal archaeological training and presented no verifiable evidence to support his claims. 

Key alleged "discoveries" by Ron Wyatt and their refutations:

• Noah's Ark: Wyatt claimed the Durupinar site in eastern Turkey was the petrified remains of Noah's Ark. Geologists and archaeologists who examined the site determined it to be a natural, boat-shaped geological rock formation (ophiolite outcrop) created by a mudflow, with no actual evidence of an ancient wooden structure.
  
• The Ark of the Covenant and Jesus' Blood: Wyatt claimed he found the Ark of the Covenant hidden in a cave beneath the traditional crucifixion site in Jerusalem and that an earthquake at the time of Jesus' death allowed Christ's blood to fall onto the Ark's Mercy Seat. He claimed the dried blood sample, when tested in an Israeli lab, had only 24 chromosomes (implying a divine origin) and was still biologically active. There is no scientific evidence, lab reports, or independent verification of this story. The Garden Tomb Association, the relevant authority, refuted his claims of finding any artifacts on their premises.
  
• Red Sea Crossing and Chariot Wheels: Wyatt claimed to have found the precise location of the Red Sea crossing in the Gulf of Aqaba and discovered Egyptian chariot wheels and the remains of human and horse bones underwater. Professional analysis indicates no organic remains (skin or bone) could survive the effects of salt water and marine life for millennia, and the alleged "chariot wheels" were never submitted for scientific testing. The video footage appears to be a hoax.
  
• Sodom and Gomorrah: He claimed to have found the sites of the biblical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, presenting sulfur balls as evidence. These claims have been dismissed by experts.
  
• Other Claims: His numerous other claims included finding Noah's home and tomb, anchor stones for the Ark, the Book of the Law written by Moses, Goliath's sword, and the stone seal of Jesus' tomb. 
  

In summary, Ron Wyatt's "discoveries" are considered hoaxes and fabrications because he never provided any verifiable physical evidence that could be examined and corroborated by the wider scientific and archaeological communities. His claims were often made through blurry photos and anecdotal stories, and were rejected by authorities like the Israel Antiquities Authority and even fellow creationist groups like Answers in Genesis

(11-11-2025, 04:49 AM)FlyersFan Wrote: Nope.  Didn't say any such thing.  Not sure how your mind came up with that.

Those videos that I provided show the scientific and historical information that proves Noahs Flood did not happen in 2348BC like the bible literalists claim.  I suggest you watch them.  Start with the archeology one.  20 minutes.

Those "Biblical literalists" usually cite the KJV as being their text of choice. In many regards, it is probably the worst English translation.

If the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says, then it is fairly pointless. It would just be a collection of fictions and opinions.

The issue is, what exactly was intended by its authors? Are we interpreting the text, correctly? This also gets muddied by the reinterpretations of translators, and of those who take small snippets of text out of context, and sermonize and expand on it, applying their opinions, misunderstandings, fictions and cultural biases, on top of previous opinions, misunderstandings, fictions and cultural biases.

We have to go back to the oldest source texts, and try and get the best translations, and also learn about the cultures and backgrounds of the authors, to really even have an idea of what was intentioned in the writings - Then, at that point, we are in a position to either debunk or validate the accounts in the texts.

(11-11-2025, 02:32 PM)chr0naut Wrote: If the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says, then it is fairly pointless. It would just be a collection of fictions and opinions.

People can't read the bible like it's a single big history book.
It's 73 separate books under one cover. 
46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.
Some is myth.  Some is poetry.  Some is history.  Some is allegory.
And always gotta' keep in mind ... the history is told from the point
of view of the Hebrews so it's biased.

(11-11-2025, 01:52 PM)chr0naut Wrote: If you would look at other modern English Bible translations, you would see that they translate "mountains" as "high hills". Why might that be?

And... did all the sea creatures die too? Because that represents a direct textual contradiction. Perhaps what you believe about what the text is saying was not the intention of the authors?

And... you also are assuming that the authors, people just out of the stone age, had a concept of the world beyond what they could directly experience.

Also, the attribution (toledot) of the writers of this account are specifically 'the sons of Noah'. It is their account of what they witnessed - like Abraham, Noah doesn't get a 'toledot' in the Genesis account. Another great patriarch who is missing an alleged personal geneology. LOL.

From an earlier post, you contend that the Genesis Flood was local to the Levant. Other posters contend that the Genesis story was retooled from the Mesopotamian stories. Your position and the other both claim that the flood was local, not global.

But have you read how the flood is written about in 2 Peter? I've read it over three times in the last couple of days. The author seems to be a fundamentalist with a high confidence in the factuality of what he read in Genesis. Here is what he wrote in chapter 3:

Quote: 5 For they willfully forget that there were heavens from of old, and an earth formed out of water and amid water by the word of God, 6 by which means the world that existed then, being overflowed with water, perished. 7 But the heavens that exist now and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

WEB

According to him the World perished. I'm pretty sure that the 1st or 2nd century author was aware of a World larger than the Levant, or even bigger than the whole Roman Empire.

-----
And the generations of Noah are in Genesis 5:28-32, 9:18-19, 29. Abram's genealogy is Genesis 11: 10-26. You can go by the ages at birth of son to figure out how long after Adam that the supposed worldwide flood happened and then how long after the flood Abram was. That's how the Bishop Ussher dating get's figured.

(11-07-2025, 09:40 AM)3rdrockfrmsun Wrote: So let’s have at it — evidence, theology, myth, and everything in between.

thank you a very interesting thread except perhaps for some of the ratholing but that is expected and the topic is a good example of the progression of history which is in contradiction to the idea of an immutable past that drunk iranian wined about with his moving finger ramble which is true as far as it goes in that ones desires cannot reshape the past but not true in that reality is more subtle than that where things proceed from the literal to the mythic though a process of apocalypse and acausal abasement with retroactive continuity applied empirically to the the exact extent of the necessity of determinable stability. the process of events from the tangible and semiotically meaningless to the archetypic and symbolic, the genesis of mythos, is the fascinating process here, as in example the world was flat before it was round, and was flooded before it was reborn as though it had never died. even more interesting is the post-apocalyptic rebasement of mythos into concrete reality when that process itself is realized and begins anew and the legends of old become real once more.

(11-11-2025, 03:50 PM)FlyersFan Wrote: People can't read the bible like it's a single big history book.
It's 73 separate books under one cover. 
46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.
Some is myth.  Some is poetry.  Some is history.  Some is allegory.
And always gotta' keep in mind ... the history is told from the point
of view of the Hebrews so it's biased.

I'm just curious then, how much of the Old Testament is myth and allegory?  

Did Moses really part the Red Sea and lead the Israelites out of exile where they wandered in the desert for 40 years?  And did he really  receive the Ten Commandments on Mt Sinai? 

Then there are other stories...Sodom and Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, Jericho.   I don't know if you can find archeological or physical proof since these events are thousands of years old.

(11-12-2025, 06:39 AM)UltraBudgie Wrote:
thank you a very interesting thread except perhaps for some of the ratholing but that is expected and the topic is a good example of the progression of history which is in contradiction to the idea of an immutable past that drunk iranian wined about with his moving finger ramble which is true as far as it goes in that ones desires cannot reshape the past but not true in that reality is more subtle than that where things proceed from the literal to the mythic though a process of apocalypse and acausal abasement with retroactive continuity applied empirically to the the exact extent of the necessity of determinable stability. the process of events from the tangible and semiotically meaningless to the archetypic and symbolic, the genesis of mythos, is the fascinating process here, as in example the world was flat before it was round, and was flooded before it was reborn as though it had never died. even more interesting is the post-apocalyptic rebasement of mythos into concrete reality when that process itself is realized and begins anew and the legends of old become real once more.

That’s a fascinating way to look at it — and honestly, it brushes up against a lot of what the Gnostics were getting at: that reality isn’t just a fixed sequence of events, but a kind of ongoing revelation. The literal gives birth to the mythic, and the mythic in turn reshapes what we call literal — a feedback loop between matter and meaning.

The idea that the flood “was” before it “became,” and then “becomes again” through symbol and retelling — that’s the kind of cyclical understanding ancient faiths hinted at long before modern theology tried to categorize everything. It’s not that myth replaces truth; it’s that myth expands it. A story like the flood doesn’t lose power when taken symbolically — it gains dimension. It carries both the memory of water rising and the spiritual recognition of cleansing, judgment, and rebirth.

You’re right that this tension between the tangible and the archetypal is what gives these stories their endurance. Maybe that’s what people miss when they argue about whether it “really” happened — that the real power of the flood narrative lies in how it keeps happening, inwardly and outwardly, generation after generation.

And maybe that’s what apocalypse actually means — not total destruction, but revelation. A pulling back of the veil to show that the physical and the spiritual have always been layered over one another, like sediment after a storm.

(11-12-2025, 07:56 AM)Roma Wrote: I'm just curious then, how much of the Old Testament is myth and allegory?  

- Creation ... allegory.   
- Adam and Eve in the garden ... didn't happen.   Allegory.
- Talking snakes ... didn't happen.  Allegory.
- Enoch, 7th from Adam, didn't exist.   (Side note - Book of Enoch written 300 BC - Fiction)
- Exodus ... did not happen as the bible claims.   Exaggeration.
- Hebrew conquest of the Canaanite cities after Exodus ... the cities were already abandoned.
- Ten Commandments ... most come from older sources which Moses already knew being highly educated.
- Baalam and the talking donkey.   Miracle or myth?  You decide.
- Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.  Miracle or myth?  You decide.
- Job ...  Didn't happen.  Allegory
- Jonah and the whale ... Didn't happen.  Allegory.
- Joshua and the Walls of Jericho ... either exaggeration or myth.  Jericho had no walls in Joshuas time.  The walls were gone hundreds of years earlier.
- Tower of Babel ... Didn't happen.  Allegory and creation myth.  We know how language developed and that wasn't it.
- Abrahams life ... historically inaccurate ... Philistines didn't arrive in region until centuries later, camels didn't exist there, he could not have been born in Ur of the Chaldeans, because  Chaldeans had not migrated to the region of Ur at that time, etc.   Did Abraham even exist?
- Queen Esther ... no historical evidence to back story up.  Patriotic allegory.  second-century-BCE Jewish novel.
- Book of Daniel ... lots of historical inaccuracies.   Probably  second-century-BCE Jewish novel.
- General errors like .... Did the River Gehon flow from Mesopotamia and encompass Ethiopia (Gen 2:13)? Look on the maps you’ll see this would require water to flow uphill.
- Prophecies that didn't come true - Ezekiel's prophecy (Eze 26:3–26:14) that the city of Tyre would be laid siege to by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, and destroyed.   In reality the siege lasted 13 years and ended with a surrender.  The city is still standing and lived in today.
- The stories about the kingdom of David and Solomon.  Possibly patriotic exaggeration.  David may have been a minor tribal chief.


New Testament -

- The genealogy of Jesus.   
- There is good evidence that the 'let him without sin cast the first stone' story was added later.
- The census at the time of Jesus birth.   Questionable if it happened.  No record of it.