(10-26-2025, 12:08 PM)UltraBudgie Wrote: What is normal for society? Seems to me Tartaria is a search for an explanation. Two possibilities:

- Past-people much more advanced in many ways, built amazing craftsmanship homes/buildings. Even accounting for survivorship bias, why/how was so much effort put in, with such a smaller population and economy? There was an aberration in past, now is normal.

- Today-people degraded in some way, have lost much ability to create beautiful things, past was normal, now is an aberration. Was there deliberate destruction of the past to hide this?

Which is it? Or is it not either/or, and what explains it all?

Well... I never claim that I have some understanding that elevates my opinion much...

But it always struck me as significant, that no matter the generation of people, no matter the setting within time, or over the expanses of land...

People have always expressed "alarm" about new directions, and pointed elsewhere proclaiming "The end is nigh!" and "We have lost our way."  Always eluding to a "better time" or a more "exemplary" manner of life.

Always and forever.... 

It seems to me that it speaks of an embedded perspective, perhaps even a bias.

The only thing that keeps this real is that we keep trying.
Dialogues like this might even be helpful to someone finding themselves wondering on the subject.
Is there an answer begs another obtuse point:  Is this the right question?

Are we 'modeling' some aspect of reality?

Could it not more likely be that we call it bias, but it is a choice of perspective?



Earlier, I made a cryptic allusion to re-examining princes and principalities...

Before we build anymore edifices on civilization, we must tend to the integrity of the foundation.
That's where future 'unsolvable' social problems might be found.

(10-26-2025, 11:56 AM)Maxmars Wrote: Well, patience is a virtue....
or the author could be reviewing the objections so stridently brought forth.
or it was a 'drop' and ditch bot tactic,
or someone who needs help with the system, or interface...
or so unaccustomed to actual engagement, rather than 'industrial social media' that they were taken aback...

Perhaps the response was not anticipated... or undesired....

We could only speculate.

Come on back!

Hi Maxmars,

Sincere apologies that I went away & didn't come back for a very long time.  Truth be told there's a lot going on in my life at the moment; I had gotten used to not being on ATS for several months, and found many ways to occupy my spare time in the intervening months, which meant that my former commitment to responding to threads when I was on ATS had somewhat disappeared in the time since that beloved site shut down.

I now have the rather monumental task of working through the many responses in this thread in order to set my thoughts in order as to how to reply to them all.  I suspected that there would be an abundance of objections, and to be honest, I sometimes throw things out into the Noosphere without really deciding for definite one way or another what I believe in response to certain aspects of the situation being discussed.  So I have a strong intuition about the truth of a particular aspect of the proposition I'm putting in writing, but perhaps there are aspects that I'm less certain of, or even aspects that I simply do not agree with & therefore need to find a way to set my thoughts as being in some opposition to those aspects, without abandoning core aspects of the hypothesis, so that people don't get the wrong idea about what I'm trying to say.  For example, I disparage the 'mud flood' aspect of the Tartarian hypothesis, and I do not doubt that the Qing dynasty or the Mongol empire existed.  That doesn't mean that principle aspects of my argument are not worth consideration - for example, the prime issue of Satan having a masterplan to use the globe Earth theory to cause people to turn away from God, because with a globe Earth spinning in the cold, dead, godless void of space, people don't need a Creator to account for the world we live in.  However, if we are on a flat planar expanse within a system that includes a local Sun & Moon, and a Firmament over above us, with infinite Heaven expanding in all directions beyond, then a Creator is a necessary feature of the system because there is no way that such a world could have arisen 'by accident'.  This is kind of the crux of my argument when it comes to 'why the globe conspiracy?'

As it pertains to Satan's little season, there are still questions to be answered, but I think my point about the globe conspiracy has merit when it comes to understanding Satan's misdirection of the public mindset over the past ninety years, since Auguste Piccard ascended to the stratosphere & reported that the Earth was "..flat, with an upturned edge".  Which was immediately misreported on the AP & Reuters news wires in the first fully evidenced incident of 'fake news' to the masses, with both claiming that he had "seen the curvature of the Earth".  There was a reason they didn't want the (rather new) globe model to be destroyed by evidence from a truly remarkable scientist who actually witnessed the true shape of the Earth with his own eyes, rather than depending on what people were telling each other at that time & since.  They wanted to preserve their master's plan for the misdirection of humanity, and it has continued apace since then, as we all can attest.

I will get into the replies & do some thinking, then I'll come back with refinements of my original thoughts & responses to particular points made by others.  Again, sorry it has taken so long to get back to you all, I will try to hang around more in the future, now that I can see that this site is very active & full of people posting vigorously.

God bless.


Elijah.

(10-25-2025, 09:56 AM)KKLoco Wrote: You just added to my point, thank you. The 'mud flood' BS was added to the Tartaria conspiracy much later, as well. Forgot to add that one. This just furthers my point more. No one is willing to talk about Tartaria, without bringing up later added BS like flat earth, Satan's little season, and mud floods. So the whole subject gets squashed because of later added BS.

I'm not coming down on you because the OP did this to himself by bringing that crap up.

Love the way you love the idea of trashing someone's worldview.

Firstly, what little amount that people have commented upon the flat earth mystery in this thread shows me that they haven't actually investigated the flat Earth mystery for themselves, they are just doing what you said, which is adding BS upon BS in order to prop up a theory that is flawed beyond belief when you look at the actual citizen science that has been done to prove that yes, indeed, the Earth itself is a flat planar expanse, and it is not a spheroid globe spinning through the cold, dead, godless void of space as is claimed by the mainstream & all those TV scientists we love to hate.

Let's just take ships & the horizon; it has been amply demonstrated that ships that have 'disappeared over the horizon, 'hull first'' can actually be brought back into full view sitting on the surface of the water using a suitably high optical zoom camera.  That's just for starters.  Pictures from space?  Please.  Photoshop was incredible decades ago, and NASA has a budget of $50,000,000 per day with which to craft a fairytale narrative & lots of visual 'evidence' to support their supposed true theory.  These are the guys who conned the world into thinking that several men landed on the Moon using a craft that looked like it had been designed in 'Art & CRAFT' at the local elementary school.  Everything about that landing was BS, so why wouldn't they think they could continue the con with such a high budget over the course of many decades?  They just kept doubling down.  Now we see India & China trying to do the same thing, yet laughably, because they have no experience, tiny budgets, & their technologists suck in comparison to the experts working at NASA.

Let's look at laser sightings over large bodies of water.  Lakes that are 24 miles long - a laser mounted two feet above the waterline is sighted by a camera positioned on the opposing shoreline, also mounted two feet above the water.  There should be a LOT of Earth curvature hiding the path of that laser beam, but it appears easily tracked from the opposite end of the lake, with zero curvature blocking the way.  Impossible on a globe.

Look at infrared videography taken from a Boeing 737 flying somewhere near Texas, sighting the Colorado Rocky Mountains something like 500-700 miles away.  How could this conceivably happen on a spherical Earth?   Answer: It couldn't.  The only accurate response would be to say that we live on a flat planar expanse.

There are things about the flat Earth theory, in terms of the relative strength of the evidence, that are harder to prove to a person who is argumentative & convinced that they live on a globe.  But the simple facts I have just described in this post are beyond doubt, because they are easily evidenced by citizen science with simple equipment & they can be proven over & over & over again, no matter how many times footage of the experiments is 'inexplicably lost' from the internet, as has often happened in times past.

I will agree that elements of the Tartaria hypothesis are bunk, such as the mud flood nonsense.  I will concede that because the Second Coming of Christ is guaranteed to be a universal cosmic event ("like lightning seen from the East to the West"), it probably hasn't happened yet.  At the time I wrote the thread I was really convinced due to some things that I had been exploring around that time that I was correct in assuming that we are operating in 'Satan's little season', but I will confess that I am less convinced as things stand at this exact moment in time, though I still believe that possibly the question needs to be explored a bit further.

How about that for the starting point for an expansion of the discussion in this thread?  I am convinced by abundant actual citizen science experimentation that we live on a flat planar expanse, bounded by an icy realm & firmament, which we are unable to independently explore because of the impact of the Antarctic Treaty set up in 1959, by virtue of which many nations have ships & spotter planes (& sensor arrays in the oceans) patrolling the Antarctic waters, so you are NEVER going to be able to mount an independent expedition which will get you to the edge, where the firmament meets the ice.  That realm is strictly controlled by elite military intelligence forces from many nations acting cooperatively, so it's completely off limits to civilian scientists.  There was one 'experiment' done by an alleged flat Earther guy in Antarctica but it was later demonstrated that his videos were heavily manipulated, and so we know he was operating in collusion with those self-same military intelligence groups, a total sellout who took the money & betrayed his beliefs - or maybe he was a plant in the movement from the beginning, we will never know, publicly.  But it was a scam.   Genuine flat Earth enthusiasts will NEVER be allowed to investigate ANYTHING in Antarctica, because the truth is such a tightly guarded secret, they simply wouldn't allow it after all this time, it would fracture the mind of the average citizen to learn that the flat Earth mystery is the most true reflection of what our Earth realm actually consists of.  They would literally go mad with the cognitive dissonance, so it's only on places like this website where we can openly discuss these possibilities, because it acts as a filter, such that in general, only the truly devoted truth-seeker will ever come into contact with solid evidence for what we are claiming in terms of the mystery itself, and the reality of this world.

Happy to discuss.



Elijah.

edited for spelling

It's the winter/summer solstice in just over a week. The perfect time to begin an experiment regarding the flat earth theory.

Just take a picture of the sun at midday, do it every week for 6 months and depending where you are on the planet (or disk?) you'll be able to track the Sun moving either closer or further away depending on which side of the planet you're on 

Unless you live on the equator, it'll still move about on the North/South axis but it's nowhere near as pronounced as elsewhere.

If you live in in the Northern hemisphere over the next 6 months the sun will slowly move northwards until in 6 months it's practically above you at midday. From winter to Summer.

If you live in the southern hemisphere over the next 6 months the Sun will also slowly move northwards too until it's practically towards the northern horizon at midday. From Summer to Winter.

This phenomenon flips every 6 months. As the North approaches winter the sun moves further away as the Sun appears to become closer for those in the South.

If the planet isn't some sort of spheroid the next best theory would be it's a giant Pringles tub that's also seasonally tilting on it's axis but even that doesn't quite fit.

(12-13-2025, 07:03 AM)Ray1990 Wrote: It's the winter/summer solstice in just over a week. The perfect time to begin an experiment regarding the flat earth theory.

Just take a picture of the sun at midday, do it every week for 6 months and depending where you are on the planet (or disk?) you'll be able to track the Sun moving either closer or further away depending on which side of the planet you're on 

Unless you live on the equator, it'll still move about on the North/South axis but it's nowhere near as pronounced as elsewhere.

If you live in in the Northern hemisphere over the next 6 months the sun will slowly move northwards until in 6 months it's practically above you at midday. From winter to Summer.

If you live in the southern hemisphere over the next 6 months the Sun will also slowly move northwards too until it's practically towards the northern horizon at midday. From Summer to Winter.

This phenomenon flips every 6 months. As the North approaches winter the sun moves further away as the Sun appears to become closer for those in the South.

If the planet isn't some sort of spheroid the next best theory would be it's a giant Pringles tub that's also seasonally tilting on it's axis but even that doesn't quite fit. 

This phenomenon can also be measured with the stars too if you happen to be a vampire or allergic to the sun. Use the southern cross or the big dipper. The southern cross should be towards the horizon right about now and for the north the big dipper will be pretty much above you towards the north.  As summer approaches in the Northern hemisphere the big dipper will slowly move back to where it's famed for being and in the Southern hemisphere the Southern cross will appear to be more and more above you.

I picked those constellations because they're pretty well known to navigators and are regarded as ones that'll get you home.

The constilations and stars do not appear to move North and South yearly. The rotational axis of the Earth is not wobbling notisably yearly. 

The Sun viewed from the Earth appears to move North and South because of the tilt of the Earth's axis. Each day, the position of the Sun at noon  is 1/325.25 of a circle different. This is because straight up at noon is 1/365.25 of the Earth's orbit moved from the previous day. The same applies to any other direction at any same time a day apart. This along with the tilt is what makes the apparent Sun motion. 

The stars are always exactly where they appeared to be the previous night except for the rotation of 1/the Earth's year, farther West.

(12-13-2025, 08:28 AM)BeyondKnowledge Wrote: The constilations and stars do not appear to move North and South yearly. The rotational axis of the Earth is not wobbling notisably yearly. 

The Sun viewed from the Earth appears to move North and South because of the tilt of the Earth's axis. Each day, the position of the Sun at noon  is 1/325.25 of a circle different. This is because straight up at noon is 1/365.25 of the Earth's orbit moved from the previous day. The same applies to any other direction at any same time a day apart. This along with the tilt is what makes the apparent Sun motion. 

The stars are always exactly where they appeared to be the previous night except for the rotation of 1/the Earth's year, farther West.

I removed that bit, but yeah it's basically spinning around Polaris. My point was it all points to a rounded planet spinning. Assumably in a circular motion around something. It's all relative to the position on the earth.

The loss of daylight and where the sun appears during the seasons is very noticeable where I am which is about 55 degrees north. Some of the places I've lived have been perfectly aligned east/west. Since I'm in the northern hemisphere I'd never see the sun shining though north facing windows.

(12-13-2025, 08:49 AM)Ray1990 Wrote: I removed that bit, but yeah it's basically spinning around Polaris. My point was it all points to a rounded planet spinning. Assumably in a circular motion around something. It's all relative to the position on the earth.

The loss of daylight and where the sun appears during the seasons is very noticeable where I am which is about 55 degrees north. Some of the places I've lived have been perfectly aligned east/west. Since I'm in the northern hemisphere I'd never see the sun shining though north facing windows.

I don't usually join the flat Earth discussions as they are almost always unchanging. I thought you needed a little help not confusing them more. The rest of your post was quite good. 

If you watch this video at the part where the solar system is beginning to move, it shows the reason for the apparent motion of the Sun.

(12-13-2025, 09:05 AM)BeyondKnowledge Wrote: I don't usually join the flat Earth discussions as they are almost always unchanging. I thought you needed a little help not confusing them more. The rest of your post was quite good. 

If you watch this video at the part where the solar system is beginning to move, it shows the reason for the apparent motion of the Sun.

[Video: https://youtu.be/fJuaPyQFrYk?si=yP2jHt4rHl3inuTz]

Cheers for the video. Yeah I should've went with KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid 

All the spinning throws me off...

the train track analogy works well I think. the sun is the inner sky and on the right whilst the night sky is the outer sky on the left. each house we pass (constellation) is set 1hr apart and we pass 1 every hour for a total of 12hrs which is when we complete the circle/loop, after you pass the house of virgo it's 90 degrees to you on the left  and in a couple of hours it'll slowly roll out of view. In 6 hours time when you're on the complete opposite side of the track (or circle) you'll not be able to see it at all because the sun is obscuring it from view as it would now be directly to your right at 90 degrees behind the sun.

I think it'll be a bit kinder on dyslexic brains and the likes, I know the whole spinning around thing used to twist my melon. It's why the zodiacs go east to west seemingly, perspective wise they do but it's part of a much bigger circle, which is part of bigger one and a bigger one.