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What is God and does it exist?
#81
The oldest known religion found so far was around 35,000 years ago (call it Paleolithic spirituality) located in Manot cave; some where around Israel .

When I think of all the Gods that have been prayed to since mankind developed a semi inquiring superstitious mind it really is mind boggling to anyone who thinks about such things. I don't get faithfully excited about the latest Sky Fairy that insist on killing all non believers as this is but one more example of idiots being superstitious idiots IMO.. 

Mesopotamia prayed to 3600 gods as they believed a separate god was responsible for just about everything. No wonder it was finally decided one all powerful "TRUE" god was easier to remember after Mesopotamia's society was destroyed.

Most of the ancient gods existed until the society that spawned them was destroyed in war. Think of all the people on their knees praying to their god and protector to save them as the blade, stone axe, or bullet descended to take their life. Your Enemy is evil as you are to your enemy and both sides pray to their god for victory.. One side will be disappointed. 

Animism, Shamanism, Divination, you name it as some people will believe in anything. I remember some soldiers rushing to get a certain Buddhist tattoo that would protect them from enemy bullets.... Those who survived swore it was due to their faith and the tattoo while those who died did not have enough faith or maybe the tattoo artist messed up.. People will believe in anything if afraid enough.   

I remember during a mortar attack as stuff was being blown up around me through my own lips passed, " God please make them stop !" My Prayer was answered sometime later because the bad guys ran out of mortars or god was listening ?

So people can believe anything they want if it brings them peace and fulfillment as long as they do not force themselves upon others like, "you believe my way or burn in hell for all eternity," or,,, we cut very important pieces of your body off until you believe like us.. 

This story comes from the Amazon:  The Chief's/head man's  daughter got pregnant which meant her boyfriend would be found and killed; she would be banned from the tribe as she was not married to the boy (serious birth control IMO). This particular tribe believed the White river dolphin was a shape shifting spirit that could change form so..... the girl claimed the River dolphin came to her during the night and got her pregnant and promised her the child would be special. Case closed as who would argue with the Chief's daughter ?? 

All of us have or want some kind of spiritual connection and many will go to extreme links to establish a connection whether real or imagined. Religion has been just another way of coping with the unknown and giving solace to the afraid who believe if they tow the religious party line when they die it will be wonderful. 72 virgins comes to mind... Wonder what the Virgins think about all that ? Just another example of Overwhelming Propaganda Dominance by so called leaders who want control.. 

 Ask yourself why does ignorance and superstition seem to be a universal trait with humans? There was a time when some of the greatest minds of Europe were debating on just how many angels could dance upon the head of a pin.. Just another worth while endeavor for a bunch of devout superstitious individuals. I do think Science is the answer as few people can figure anything out by praying except for their own selfish desires/goals being laid bare. When I say Science I mean real science not the bought and paid for out come science rammed down our mental throats.

 I am of the opinion that Noah's Ark and other plagiarized fairy tales are just stories written by man to reinforce and put the fear of god in the uneducated/unknowing which the religious institutions use as societal control. Yep all the ancient written records have a flood myth but only one Noah in the christen bible. The whole inbreeding thingy must have been waved to repopulate the earth, no ?? 

 Religions in many cases are a destructive force which has been responsible for untold thousands of deaths and wars, all in the name of some silent unseen sky fairy who has mankind write what the god supposedly wants us to believe. Key words being "man writes what is to be believed" and then the man claims his hand was guided by some supreme god. Thousands of years of stifled growth and advancement due to some written words supposedly by a god who promises paradise after you are dead yet written by men who seek power "NOW " and live in a fantasy of their own creation..

 To many gods and great human deeds have been buried in the sands of history, all forgotten to never have been known in history what actually happened; much less the reasons for so many souls to give up their lives as their gods were forgotten long ago.

 Sad
#82
Unfortunately the art of using fear to keep people in line has been perfected by organized religion.
#83
(08-02-2025, 02:33 AM)Ignorant Wrote: Unfortunately the art of using fear to keep people in line has been perfected by organized religion.

I tend to agree, and while religion also offers comfort and community.

Its historical use of fear as a mechanism for control is undeniable and widespread.

And it's been that way throughout recorded history.
"Yet so it is, we see the illiterate bulk of mankind that walk the high-road of plain common sense, and are governed by the dictates of nature, for the most part easy and undisturbed. To them nothing that is familiar appears unaccountable or difficult to comprehend."
#84
(08-02-2025, 05:37 AM)andy06shake Wrote: I tend to agree, and while religion also offers comfort and community.

Its historical use of fear as a mechanism for control is undeniable and widespread.

And it's been that way throughout recorded history.

There are rumours going around online about Pope Leo XIV upsetting the religious control apple cart.

One change, which may be true or not, is that he wants church leaders to preach hope and salvation instead of focusing on humanity as sinners.

I recall when I was first married to a Protestant, they were curious to find out what Christmas midnight mass was all about, so we went. The first words out of the Reverend's mouth was "You are all sinners". I got up and walked out. So, I would look forward to a new way to address and teach us about hope, salvation, love, and compassion as the guiding principles.
"The only journey is the one within."
#85
(08-02-2025, 07:09 AM)quintessentone Wrote: There are rumours going around online about Pope Leo XIV upsetting the religious control apple cart.

One change, which may be true or not, is that he wants church leaders to preach hope and salvation instead of focusing on humanity as sinners.

I recall when I was first married to a Protestant, they were curious to find out what Christmas midnight mass was all about, so we went. The first words out of the Reverend's mouth was "You are all sinners". I got up and walked out. So, I would look forward to a new way to address and teach us about hope, salvation, love, and compassion as the guiding principles.

Technically, he was correct, we are indeed all sinners to one degree or another.

But it's not what one wishes to hear first thing on Christmas morning.

The world does indeed require more hope, salvation, love, and compassion.

Have to say though, im just not feeling it or seeing it much, quite the opposite in point of fact.
"Yet so it is, we see the illiterate bulk of mankind that walk the high-road of plain common sense, and are governed by the dictates of nature, for the most part easy and undisturbed. To them nothing that is familiar appears unaccountable or difficult to comprehend."
#86
(08-02-2025, 07:21 AM)andy06shake Wrote: Technically, he was correct, we are indeed all sinners to one degree or another.

But it's not what one wishes to hear first thing on Christmas morning.

The world does indeed require more hope, salvation, love, and compassion.

Have to say though, im just not feeling it or seeing it much, quite the opposite in point of fact.

Religiously coerced love and compassion, is not genuine love and compassion...it's based in fear and damnation.
"The only journey is the one within."
#87
(08-02-2025, 07:35 AM)quintessentone Wrote: Religiously coerced love and compassion, is not genuine love and compassion...it's based in fear and damnation.

Agreed.

True love and compassion arise freely, without threat or expectation.

And when someone acts kindly only to avoid punishment or gain favor, their actions are performative, not sincere.

Genuine compassion flows from empathy, understanding, and care, not from fear of hell or longing for paradise.  Saint2
"Yet so it is, we see the illiterate bulk of mankind that walk the high-road of plain common sense, and are governed by the dictates of nature, for the most part easy and undisturbed. To them nothing that is familiar appears unaccountable or difficult to comprehend."
#88
(08-01-2025, 11:00 PM)Sky727 Wrote: The oldest known religion found so far was around 35,000 years ago (call it Paleolithic spirituality) located in Manot cave; some where around Israel .
...

But evidence of organized religious ritual is not the same as finding the actual religion.

We can speculate, infer, and deduce many things.. except thought.

We have been poisoned by the idea that ancient homo sapiens were cartoonish grunting thugs...
incapable of anything complex like "talking about current event."

I can't ever hope to prove my suspicion... that "ancient man" was far from unthinking.

35,000 years ago people gathered to ponder the nature of the world...
that doesn't sound exactly "primitive" to me.
#89
(08-02-2025, 02:33 AM)Ignorant Wrote: Unfortunately the art of using fear to keep people in line has been perfected by organized religion.


That's because they had the most time to perfect the 'program.'

There are now uncountable agencies that do the same thing... almost exclusively.
#90
(07-31-2025, 02:06 PM)Maxmars Wrote: It is an impossibility for any one person to "understand" the faith of another... Creeds, tribes, familial relationship... notwithstanding.

Harmoniously or not, the same can be said of defining "love."

My perspective is that faith is somehow alive in me... 

As for "faith, all we can do is define what we "see" of it... and opine or ask about what we saw... the definers don't one want offend anymore... nothing is just published ... it's scrubbed for social compliance (or should that be complacence?)

I can only opine about what I feel and perceive of faith...

Many people I respect greatly have spoken at great length and with great style about God ---- that thing upon which "faith" seems to hinge.

I never want there to be evidence of God...
Faith is too precious a gift to lose...
the only real gift one person can give to another.
I don't think that I understand what you mean by personal God.

I'm thinking now of Martin Buber's I and Thou. I've read it twice a couple of years apart, about five years ago.

There are the objective its, discreet individual things. Then there are I-Thou relationships. I'm not explaining this very well.

The question is: Can God (your personal God) be a self existent It, or is it always a Thou? Is it temporary, say as long as a conversation is happening or does it fade slowly away to emerge later?

The question is based upon my observation about conversations I have had with relatives or friends. At times it became clear to me that they were not addressing me but rather some straw man construct of me in their heads. No real I-Thou happening.

I guess another way of asking is: Is God objective and subjective or only subjective? Can He just kick back and be like a human can with no one around or does He exist only in or as a conversation?
There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people. - Commander William Adama



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