The Picts Scotland's Greatest Mystery

[andy06shake]

 
The Picts are one of the biggest mysteries in my nation's history.

They lived in what is now eastern and northern Scotland during the early Middle Ages.

We know they were made up of different tribes, and that they built hillforts, carved impressive symbol stones, and fought both the Romans and later the Anglo-Saxons.

Eventually they merged with the Gaels, helping form the Kingdom of Alba, which was the foundation of medieval Scotland.
 
But what we don't know is just as interesting.

We still can't fully comprehend what many of their carved symbols meant.

We don't know exactly how their society was organised.

Or what language they spoke in everyday life.

Old stories about them being tattooed warriors or a lost civilisation are mostly myths or exaggerations.

The truth is that the Picts were real, but much of their history has been lost.

This short video attempts to shine some light on some more interesting aspects of their existance. 

Thoughts and opinions welcome...

[quintessentone]

One would think that if the would be conquerers that sailed to (from where?) Ireland were given Irish wives and the royal lines would be selected only from those female lines, that people in that region should have more Irish DNA, but I could be on the wrong track because so many other factors come into play. However, it seems to be true for the Northern Isles and Western Highlands.

"There is no single statistic for how many Scots have higher Irish DNA than Scottish DNA, as commercial DNA results vary significantly by testing company and individual ancestry.  However, genetic research and user reports indicate that substantial portions of the Scottish population, particularly in the Northern Isles and Western Highlands, carry significant Irish genetic markers due to centuries of migration, colonization, and the Ulster-Scots plantation history. 

• Historical Migration: The Irish colonized the West of Scotland in the 600s, and later, Highland Scottish mercenaries (Gallowglasses) and Ulster-Scots settlers created complex genetic overlaps, especially in Ulster and the Scottish border regions. 
  
• Testing Variance: Some DNA services show clear delineations, while others like AncestryDNA often struggle to distinguish between Northern Irish and Scottish DNA due to this shared history, leading to fluctuating percentages in results. 
  
• Regional Differences: Scots from areas like Shetland, the Hebrides, and the Western Isles often show higher Irish or Northwestern European admixture compared to those from Southern Scotland, where English influence is more pronounced.
  
• Individual Examples: Anecdotal evidence from genetic genealogy communities shows Scots with results ranging from 2% to 60% Irish DNA, reflecting diverse family histories involving the Plantation of Ulster and subsequent emigration patterns. 
  

In summary, while the majority of Scots may not have higher Irish DNA than Scottish DNA, a significant minority, particularly in the north and west, possess substantial Irish genetic ancestry that can sometimes equal or exceed their Scottish genetic markers in certain tests." (AI)

I'm still watching the video, but I just stopped to get this thought and information posted before a more deep dive.

ETA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_MacAlpin

"Early years
Kenneth MacAlpin is believed to have been born around 810[sup][11][/sup][sup][12][/sup] on the island of Iona, which is part of modern-day Scotland. After his father's death, Kenneth succeeded him as the King of Dál Riada. His coronation took place in 840 or 841. One of the main sources on Kenneth's life is the 10th century Chronicle of the Kings of Alba which describes the reigns of Scottish kings from Kenneth I to Kenneth II (r. 971–995).[sup]["

"[/sup]Sources do not detail Kenneth's conquest of Pictavia.[sup][d][/sup] No chronicle mentions either Kenneth's continuing his father's campaign against the Picts or his supposed claim to the Pictish crown. Modern-day historians suggest Kenneth was a descendant of Pictish kings through his mother or had ties with them through his wife. Kenneth's grandmother (Alpin's mother), was also said to have been a Pictish princess, the sister of Constantine I and Óengus II. It is likely the death of Eógananhe, Chronicle of Huntingdon gives the following interpretation of the events that took place after Eóganan's death:

Kynadius [Kenneth] succeeded his father Alpin in his kingdom, and that in the seventh year of his reign [the year 839], while the Danish pirates, having occupied the Pictish shores, had crushed the Picts, who were defending themselves, with a great slaughter, Kynadius, passing into their remaining territories, turned his arms against them, and having slain many, compelled them to take flight, and was the first king of the Scots who acquired the monarchy of the whole of Alban, and ruled in it over the Scots.[sup][16]"[/sup]

[sup]They called him "Krinya" which seems very similar to "Kynadius" perhaps a shortened name (?)

I'm probably on the wrong track here but it may be worth exploring it, who knows?:

"[/sup]Kenneth MacAlpin, or Cináed mac Ailpín as he was called in his native tongue, sat watching the gathering from his position at the head of the table. The air was tense. The Picts eyed his people, the Gaels from Dal riata, with suspicion. No doubt, Drest, King of Picts, would have preferred to forgo the feast at Scone but these were dire times. Kenneth allowed a sly smile to twitch at the corners of his lips. His plan was coming to fruition. For too long his people had been the underdogs. The Picts had dominated the political scene north of Forth for the last few hundred years. They had vanquished the Romans and then when the Scots had begun to flourish in the west, they had tried to subjugate them and sometimes had succeeded. The coming of the Vikings had changed everything. "

https://spookyscotland.net/kenneth-macalpin/
[sup]---[/sup]

I have a family member with roots from the Hebrides and if my memory serves me correctly, didn't a Viking conquerer rule that region originally and from which the name MacDonald is associated?

---

When it is mentioned that the Picts were tattooed, did they mean painted or actually tattooed? I really should watch the whole video, as these questions may already be answered for me.

---

"The historical Alpín mac Echdach may refer to two different persons, the first a presumed king of Dál Riata in the late 730s, descended from Fergus Mór mac Eirc; the second the father of Kenneth MacAlpin. Most modern king-lists start with Kenneth I (810–13 February 858), King of the Picts, rather that the first King of Scots as the national mythology now makes him. The name Alpín is likely Pictish one, possibly derived from the Anglo-Saxon name Ælfwine. The patronymic Mac Echdach indicates son of Eochaid or Eochu."

"Modern DNA evidence suggests that present-day MacAlpin(e)s have two distinct genetic origins strongly represented – I2a2a1a1/L369 (eastern or “Pict”) and R1b1a2/M-269 (western or “Scot”, but the dominant R1b in Europe). There is little support for a shared origin with, say, MacGregor."

https://www.scotclans.com/blogs/clans-ne...an-history

[andy06shake]

One would think that if the would be conquerers that sailed to (from where?) Ireland were given Irish wives and the royal lines would be selected only from those female lines, that people in that region should have more Irish DNA, but I could be on the wrong track because so many other factors come into play. However, it seems to be true for the Northern Isles and Western Highlands.

"There is no single statistic for how many Scots have higher Irish DNA than Scottish DNA, as commercial DNA results vary significantly by testing company and individual ancestry.  However, genetic research and user reports indicate that substantial portions of the Scottish population, particularly in the Northern Isles and Western Highlands, carry significant Irish genetic markers due to centuries of migration, colonization, and the Ulster-Scots plantation history. 

• Historical Migration: The Irish colonized the West of Scotland in the 600s, and later, Highland Scottish mercenaries (Gallowglasses) and Ulster-Scots settlers created complex genetic overlaps, especially in Ulster and the Scottish border regions. 
  
• Testing Variance: Some DNA services show clear delineations, while others like AncestryDNA often struggle to distinguish between Northern Irish and Scottish DNA due to this shared history, leading to fluctuating percentages in results. 
  
• Regional Differences: Scots from areas like Shetland, the Hebrides, and the Western Isles often show higher Irish or Northwestern European admixture compared to those from Southern Scotland, where English influence is more pronounced.
  
• Individual Examples: Anecdotal evidence from genetic genealogy communities shows Scots with results ranging from 2% to 60% Irish DNA, reflecting diverse family histories involving the Plantation of Ulster and subsequent emigration patterns. 
  

In summary, while the majority of Scots may not have higher Irish DNA than Scottish DNA, a significant minority, particularly in the north and west, possess substantial Irish genetic ancestry that can sometimes equal or exceed their Scottish genetic markers in certain tests." (AI)

I'm still watching the video, but I just stopped to get this thought and information posted before a more deep dive.

ETA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_MacAlpin

"Early yearsKenneth MacAlpin is believed to have been born around 810[sup][11][/sup][sup][12][/sup] on the island of Iona, which is part of modern-day Scotland. After his father's death, Kenneth succeeded him as the King of Dál Riada. His coronation took place in 840 or 841. One of the main sources on Kenneth's life is the 10th century Chronicle of the Kings of Alba which describes the reigns of Scottish kings from Kenneth I to Kenneth II (r. 971–995).[sup]["

"[/sup]Sources do not detail Kenneth's conquest of Pictavia.[sup][d][/sup] No chronicle mentions either Kenneth's continuing his father's campaign against the Picts or his supposed claim to the Pictish crown. Modern-day historians suggest Kenneth was a descendant of Pictish kings through his mother or had ties with them through his wife. Kenneth's grandmother (Alpin's mother), was also said to have been a Pictish princess, the sister of Constantine I and Óengus II. It is likely the death of Eógananhe, Chronicle of Huntingdon gives the following interpretation of the events that took place after Eóganan's death:

[sup]They called him "Krinya" which seems very similar to "Kynadius" perhaps a shortened name (?)

I'm probably on the wrong track here but it may be worth exploring it, who knows?:

"[/sup]Kenneth MacAlpin, or Cináed mac Ailpín as he was called in his native tongue, sat watching the gathering from his position at the head of the table. The air was tense. The Picts eyed his people, the Gaels from Dal riata, with suspicion. No doubt, Drest, King of Picts, would have preferred to forgo the feast at Scone but these were dire times. Kenneth allowed a sly smile to twitch at the corners of his lips. His plan was coming to fruition. For too long his people had been the underdogs. The Picts had dominated the political scene north of Forth for the last few hundred years. They had vanquished the Romans and then when the Scots had begun to flourish in the west, they had tried to subjugate them and sometimes had succeeded. The coming of the Vikings had changed everything. "

https://spookyscotland.net/kenneth-macalpin/
[sup]---[/sup]

I have a family member with roots from the Hebrides and if my memory serves me correctly, didn't a Viking conquerer rule that region originally and the name MacDonald is associated?

---

When it is mentioned that the Picts were tattooed, did they mean painted or actually tattooed? I really should watch the whole video, as these questions may already be answered for me.

I think Julius Caesar, said that they dyed themselves blue in order to attain a "wild look in battle".

But i imagine we dont have direct archaeological evidence because skin rarely survives from that period.

Could have been both i suppose...

[quintessentone]

I think Julius Caesar, said that they dyed themselves blue in order to attain a "wild look in battle".

But i imagine we dont have direct archaeological evidence because skin rarely survives from that period.

Could have been both i suppose...

It is quite a mystery for sure, but it seems to me that the carved stones may be Viking-inspired or vice versa.




Pictish stone distribution:



I guess what I'm getting at is the Picts may have been conquered (and were occupied by the Danish) by the Vikings and the Danish and that may explain some of their origins and genetic mixing.

"The archaeological record for this period is relatively scant,[sup][17][/sup] although improving. Toponymy provides significant information about the Scandinavian presence and examples of Norse runes provide further useful evidence. There is a significant corpus of material from the Gaelic oral tradition that relates to this period, but its value is questionable.[sup][18][/sup]Language and personal names provide some difficulties. The former is an important indicator of culture but there is very little direct evidence for its use in specific circumstances during the period under consideration. Pictish, Middle Irish and Old Norse would certainly have been spoken and Woolf (2007) suggests that a significant degree of linguistic balkanisation took place.[sup][19][/sup] As a result, single individuals often appear in sources under a variety of different names.[sup]["[/sup]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland

What is also interesting is Pictish cross symbols carved in stones...is this the influence of Christianity perhaps from Swedish?



Do you see the Viking influence?

[chr0naut]

I think Julius Caesar, said that they dyed themselves blue in order to attain a "wild look in battle".

But i imagine we dont have direct archaeological evidence because skin rarely survives from that period.

Could have been both i suppose...

They could also have dyed themselves as it was supposed to have medical powers, specifically as a topical antiseptic.

A tribe that didn't die from minor abrasions and cuts as frequently as everyone else had a decided advantage in battle in a fairly dirty environment.

Isatis tinctoria (also called woad)

Woad in herbal medicine

[andy06shake]

The meaning is still debated because the Picts left no written explanations.

But yeah, the cross carvings would seem to be strong evidence of Christian influence.

The flip side being cross-like symbols are much older than Christianity.

Appearing in many cultures with different meanings...

I can indeed see a Viking influence.



Could that be the Midgard Serpent in the middle of the square as opposed to the traditional Celtic knot?

[quintessentone]

The meaning is still debated because the Picts left no written explanations.

But yeah, the cross carvings would seem to be strong evidence of Christian influence.

The flip side being cross-like symbols are much older than Christianity.

Appearing in many cultures with different meanings...

I can indeed see a Viking influence.

[Image: https://denyignorance.com/uploader/image...179f8b.jpg]

Could that be the Midgard Serpent in the middle of the square?

It would seem likely to me that it is a serpent/snake figure.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-hig...s-50040798

"John Borland, of Historic Environment Scotland and president of the Pictish Arts Society, said: "The two massive beasts that flank and surmount the cross are quite unlike anything found on any other Pictish stone.
"These two unique creatures serve to remind us that Pictish sculptors had a remarkable capacity for creativity and individuality.
 
"Careful assessment of this remarkable monument will be able to tell us much about the production of Pictish sculpture that we could never have guessed at.""

----

On the carved stone at the link, why two beasts/serpents? I am thinking along the lines them using the ouroboros symbol to depict the continuous cycle of life and death. Or are the two depicting a Christian ideology where we are straddling spirit and material dimensions (from the Gospel of Jesus)? Who knows?

---

More...

"7. Pictland had previously been described by Roman writers and geographers as the home of the Caledonii. These Romans also used other names to refer to tribes living in that area, including Verturiones, Taexali and Venicones. These they may have heard of as second- or third-hand, from speakers of Brittonic or Gaulish languages, who may have used different names for the same group or groups. ▲"

https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/p...-who-s-who

[Tecate]

Just as an aside, I would like to remind everyone that the use of the term Viking was really more of a job description for the raiders of the north. The people themselves were called Norsemen. The everyday folk who were farmers, merchants, blacksmiths, artisans and the like were Norsemen. The Vikings themselves were the military raiders and plunderers.

Great OP btw and I look forward to finishing the video after work!!

Thanks for sharing this!

Tecate

[andy06shake]

The Vikings themselves were the military raiders and plunderers.

 

Apparently, that's how my family line arrived/stemed from.  

[quintessentone]

 

Apparently, that's how my family line arrived/stemed from.  

The same with my partner, now I know why they changed their surname to be almost untraceable.