Tavistock Influence; A Historical to Recent Tool

[quintessentone]

I recall it was all about subliminal messaging on TV when I was old enough to understand.

Tavistock influence was always there...a vibe...desire...into a weapon.

"May we have some more"

CIA - let's merge it into something more unhinged - Operation Mockingbird

Your cell phone is flashing cards into your psyche.

Now we have AI taking over the mind control.




CIA - crank up the psychological manipulation and call is MKULTRA

Crimes against humanity.

Are you allowing yourself to be a test dummy?

Maxmars, I know you know what Thiel's Gotham is up to.

They don't want you to wake up, they don't want you to be awake.

[UltraBudgie]

It goes much deeper than subliminals.

The truth is the human brain, at some level, does not distinguish between fictions presented to it on a screen, and actual experiences of real life. Even if consciously the viewer 'knows' it is fiction. The characters and situations become empathized with and 'real', and shape and colour the worldview.

Have you ever been discussing real-life events with someone and they reference what they saw in a movie or television fiction? As though that were a real factual basis for experience? Call them out on it, and they'll probably say "well, it's like that...", or some such. Because it is to them; that believability is the frame of their reality.

That's what Tavistock understood. That's what advertising understands. That's what Hollywood understands. Control the expressive modalities of popular 'culture', and you control the mental dynamics of 'real world' interaction.

It is quite terrifying to see through that veil and realize that Western cultures are the most propagandized societies in history, and live in an artificially constructed 'reality' who's boundaries are defined by the powers that be.

[quintessentone]

It goes much deeper than subliminals.

The truth is the human brain, at some level, does not distinguish between fictions presented to it on a screen, and actual experiences of real life. Even if consciously the viewer 'knows' it is fiction. The characters and situations become empathized with and 'real', and shape and colour the worldview.

Have you ever been discussing real-life events with someone and they reference what they saw in a movie or television fiction? As though that were a real factual basis for experience? Call them out on it, and they'll probably say "well, it's like that...", or some such. Because it is to them; that believability is the frame of their reality.

That's what Tavistock understood. That's what advertising understands. That's what Hollywood understands. Control the expressive modalities of popular 'culture', and you control the mental dynamics of 'real world' interaction.

It is quite terrifying to see through that veil and realize that Western cultures are the most propagandized societies in history, and live in an artificially constructed 'reality' who's boundaries are defined by the powers that be.

Well, aren't you special.

[UltraBudgie]

Well, aren't you special.

Lol, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?), there is no end to the layers of the onion, and the centre of the Tootsie Pop is quite elusive.

But peel and crunch we must!

[quintessentone]

Lol, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?), there is no end to the layers of the onion, and the centre of the Tootsie Pop is quite elusive.

But peel and crunch we must!

You are a treasure here. Please continue to teach us what you have learned because I am focused on Thiel's Gotham, but you may have more insights.

[Bootless]

I did a search for Thiel's Gotham.
Found this gem that links the propaganda drive with the total surveillance future of the World, AI race for superiority just like the old time nuclear arms race.

China understands this too. Their “New Generation Artificial Intelligence Development Plan” explicitly targets AI supremacy by 2030[3]. They’re building AI systems unconstrained by Western concerns about privacy or democracy. American policymakers see this as an existential threat requiring an equivalent response: remove constraints, accelerate development, deploy everywhere.

But selling military AI development to the American public is complicated. Abstract fears about losing technological superiority to China don’t motivate voters the way concrete threats do. Enter immigration enforcement, crime prevention, and border security. These provide the emotional urgency that strategic competition lacks.

Palantir Gotham: From 9/11 to AI

I'm still reading the article but these two paragraphs sort of jumped out at me.

Edit to add:

We’re at an inflection point similar to the months after 9/11, but the dynamics are more complex. Then, the message was “you’re either with us or with the terrorists.” Now it’s “you’re either for AI acceleration or helping China win.” But underneath that strategic argument runs a more familiar current: “you’re either for security or for chaos,” whether that chaos is terrorism, crime, or immigration.

[Maxmars]

I recall it was all about subliminal messaging on TV when I was old enough to understand.

Tavistock influence was always there...a vibe...desire...into a weapon.

"May we have some more"

.....

I know you know what Thiel's Gotham is up to.

They don't want you to wake up, they don't want you to be awake.

This is a gem....

But in my chosen context, we are looking quite directly at a 'work in progress' overtaken by "marketing."

I apologize in advance... I can tell this answer will be verbose...

Humans are, in my opinion, designed to work better together... substantially better than on their own.
It seems this is because we communicate and cooperate...

The business world is largely intellectual "manpower" that theoretically could be replaced... no one person can do all the jobs needed... each needs the support of another...  What if the 'extraneous' human could be unnecessary?  Those who channel information, collate data, provide coordination, double-check, format and present information... they could ALL be replaced with nothing that constitutes 'labor.'

And all those no longer here means less need for strictly human service support... 

How many billions can any major employer "save?"

All of this AI marketing appeals by "saving" from labor costs and the inevitable expenses attached to employment.

That is the 'face' of the problem.

It is only a problem because the US government is "insisting without evidence" that "AI" is actually within reach.  Over the last few years no one is ever exposed to one iota of dissent about what they call "AI."

Few get any air time if they insist on the term LLM over "AI" ... and even Uncle Sam seems to be smiling all the way down the gilded path of "algorithm affirmation machines."

Yet even beyond that, there is a deeper problem.. and one that really sniffs of conspiracy....

First of all replacing human decision making and interfacing to a machine construct ends effective need for contact with humans at all.  

Each human is conditioned to 'appreciate' zero-contact.. but 'zero contact' is not harmonious with what makes humans able to cooperate.  Cooperation can now be replaced with algorithmic prompting to actions... people will "DO" as they are directed by the machine.  Diagnoses will be 'calculated,' analytic "conclusions" will be mathematically resolved... control can be "communicated" with zero cost.

Theil himself sees a disconnect between a world of freedoms and the idea of democracy.  And a world of sentient machine middlemen can actually run a country... cheaply...  sounds like the stuff of super villainy to me.

But surveillance is not central to control... authority is.

Perhaps machines will soon "issue" licenses, perform weddings, and 'regulate' civil services...it won't be exactly a "slow creep"... those only happened in the past because we didn't yet have electronic communication and computers.

If we allow the marketing parrots and world leaders to keep pretending the world is a PR game...  their dream comes true....    and people will cede human affairs to a coding cluster... 'granting' or 'extending' human authority and its accompanying privilege to a system...

This super slave-mind is safe to exploit... precisely because it is not AI...

A vast amount of wealth is being placed here...
but.... Is there an AI?

What is the race coming to anyway?  A better business? More money?  Better weapons?

A kinder, gentler, tomorrow?

It's the media propping up the tale... "oooh AI."

Where is it? No... really, WHERE is it... years of hype... and we are how close? Can we even claim to be "closer?"  Based upon what reasoning?   After all, discovering the wheel didn't exactly create the automobile.

And all that fluff - to say why I think the monstrous vision of an AI-controlled world is an illusion worth maintaining.. Especially for those combines and cabals of industry and power... who rely on populations trained to follow computer instructions... and not need a person to interpret.

That nightmare is not here yet... but they are pushing that it is practically here... and the media is making sure "we" buy in.  Trillions will flow.  Many companies are trying to create the impression that their kung-fu is the most powerful... but that's all marketing...  Press releases are meant to seem 'earth shattering.'


To really go where you want... you have to refine the question... I'm only human you know... 

I feel you might want to get into how surveillance efforts and programs are going to "make use" of AI?

I think they are the first to realize that AI is not a replacement for a mind. 
(And still... someone is determined we act as if it is so.)

LLMs can render the right question's answer into a powerful weapon... but it has to be the right question... because with LLM's can't 'infer' or 'deduce' without being told where to... a mind with agency is still missing.

LLMs are a huge multi dimensional array of recorded data.  The math to convert that data to language is likely beautiful... but it is a finite data set, and a 'set' of algorithms... 

I think the whole "intelligence" business is a gimmick.   And even governments and super-geniuses are LARPing a thing that no one seems to be able to actually produce..

Theil's presence in the 'business' of surveillance is not singular... there's a 'competition' for the honor.

[quintessentone]

@Maxmars

Absolutely AI is not here rather LLM is here and is subject to indoctrination via data programming and that programming is what is giving some of us what we want, while others see it for what it is, more subliminal marketing and/or mind control. Musk had to reprogram Grok 3X (so far? more?) until Grok got with Musk's program because Grok kept spewing out the true facts.

Those that predict the future are putting the warnings signs out there "upgrade your computer/AI skills NOW". But I am all for getting rid of government red tape which should reduce the human presence and make processes streamlined. Why do saved tax dollars never end up back in the people's pockets?

Palantir's Gotham AI military contracts dwarf its immigration ones. Will we see many AI surveillance Gotham cities arise with the 'flavour of the day' authority (bought politician/corporation) being Big Brother? Young people are smart, if they want to commit vandalism/steal/commit any type of crime they know to cover themselves up completely so they can't be identified readily. 

I just read an article where an elementary teacher give her students a research project whereby they ask AI to research and write an essay then the students are to do follow up research on AI for completeness and accuracy and guess what the students found (?) - AI got it wrong. So there is hope for human mind over AI garbage in/garbage out with hallucinations thrown in here and there to be identified.

Your country is in another race for supremacy, but this time with China and this time with AI. Tech companies are buying back stocks in their companies which is keeping your company afloat somewhat. Let's see where this goes. Musk did what he set out to do, bought Trump's (lame duck President) way into the Presidency and insinuating himself in the thick of it to remove any and all regulations that would prevent his and other tech's ability to build AI plants so they would not have to deal with environmental nor people's concerns.

I'll stop here, but I could go on and on and on as well as you can.

[Maxmars]

@Maxmars

.....

I'll stop here, but I could go on and on and on as well as you can.

 A huge thank you for this conversation.

Often, I look for a way to understand what a question is... what range of results I am actually including in my own mental goings-on.   Almost invariably there are answers that anyone might approach with some excluded possibilities... often because there is an unacknowledged bias or aspect we intentionally exclude.

Conspiracy theory... as a separate, individual 'subject' it so full of 'carried-along' along ideas and extraneous information - the possibilities for misunderstanding are near-infinite.

And what I see with this entire "surveillance" sensitivity being repeatedly stoked in media productions all seems to be the foundation of a potential "myth."

If "surveillance for control" may well be "urban legend."  
More so, it might be "amplified" capabilities to maintain the appearance of control...

The same way as the reinforced images we 'respond to' as citizens... "government is God" etc, subliminals actively "inserted" into mass media... images of "government" entities as 'symbols' or 'idols' of respect... and so on.

OK - so you now can listen and or watch anyone anywhere... you'll never have to explain yourself unless the citizen knows and can react to the surveillance...  so  you can "voyeur," extract, sell, use, relay and otherwise 'claim' action on any citizen any time... all under the guise of governance...  I think Epstein and Diddy are pathetic wannabes in scale and range....

Still, you can't spell conspiracy without 'piracy'... and as usual... that  'circumstance of capability" has a "take all you can, give nothing back" vibe... kind of like the smiling surrender of the internet up/downstream to commerce...

But the theory... 

How can you really "oppress" and "subjugate" a population by coercion?... one at a time?

You can't "brow beat" and "psyche" a population... only their 'leadership.'
It is they who "believe" that no-one can ever 'know' their secrets... the things that are a threat to them.

Why aren't "they" freaking out?   
Because this is a conceptual myth, a legend, built on the same foundation as the 'elite' trope?

That they are in no way humanly afflicted, that they are some manner of cohesive 'unit' of effort, if not directly, actually driven to achieve the same goal...  sound real?  

But that doesn't happen...

These "people," which apparently 'could' engineer this situation (as a single entity- if they were robots,) are also incidentally, human beings who fight, interfere, and compete with one another... they are their own enemies seeking a 'dominant' position within their vision of "the world."

Enter - "We can surveil anyone..."

But never "this is how I protect myself..."

You KNOW they are protected... Just watch the 'entertainment' news.... are they protected? No.

There is huge lie been forced down our throats from the creation of mass media...

The "conspirators" are dangerous,, untouchable, a plan as old a legend, a devout quasi-religious and social dance... to cover something evil they worship....

I think we can already see what it is they worship, and how they worship it... don't you?  It doesn't require to be described anthropomorphically, but we do to make it 'believable.'

These co-called masters of a dark future, yet to be fully unleashed ALL fail to impress as examples of supervillains... most are the stereotypical tropish examples of entitlement and commerceand PR "appearances" ... their 'heroism' revolves entirely around PROPER profit distribution...

These people don't care about conquering the world... in any sense.... it's about conquering the world they are in now.  It almost why they always fail...  Naturally they attempt industrially, to maintain the imagery of power... while they squiggle around stealing revenue from the systemically engineered 'teat' for their 'efforts.'

This is not a "plan to dominate," it is a plan to "exploit."

If they could do this, they would have done it secretly... they chose not to - so idiots in the wild could actually "build it for them" for "appearances."

"AI" is their fantasy... they don't have it... so of course, they are going to "sell it anyway."

The marriage of tech and commerce... welcome to the abomination.  Hence: "appearances."

AI can run this shit show?  Seriously?  Where do you see that happening oh grand conspirator of my nightmares?  

Flawed people, bitching about people's flaws... and a machine will make it better... for whom?

They believe their own bullshit.... even if only in appearances... and it shows...

Idiots become citizens eventually.... morons remain so, regardless.

[quintessentone]

 A huge thank you for this conversation.


AI can run this shit show?  Seriously?  Where do you see that happening oh grand conspirator of my nightmares?  

Flawed people, bitching about people's flaws... and a machine will make it better... for whom?

They believe their own bullshit.... even if only in appearances... and it shows...

Idiots become citizens eventually.... morons remain so, regardless.

And a big thank you for the much needed alternative thinking and exploration of this topic.

Well, I really don't think these people are idiots for worrying what those who want power and control will do with this type of technology.

"German police expands use of Palantir surveillance software
 Police and spy agencies are keen to combat criminality and terrorism with artificial intelligence. But critics say the CIA-funded Palantir surveillance software enables "predictive policing.""


"Peter Thiel's Gotham used in policing people

The use of Palantir's Gotham software in policing has been a subject of significant debate and criticism. Critics argue that Gotham enables "predictive policing," which involves using data to predict criminal behavior and identify potential offenders. This has raised concerns about the potential for the software to target innocent individuals and infringe on privacy rights. The Society for Civil Rights (GFF) has lodged a constitutional complaint against the large-scale data analysis in Bavaria, highlighting the risks associated with unlimited data analysis. Despite these concerns, some police departments have confirmed their use of Gotham, citing its ability to provide a unified view of data drawn from various sources, including financial information and crime records. However, the ethical implications and potential misuse of this technology continue to be a contentious issue"

"The hacker association Chaos Computer Club supports the constitutional complaint against Bavaria. Its spokesperson, Constanze Kurz, spoke of a "Palantir dragnet investigation" in which police were linking separately stored data for very different purposes than those originally intended."This is reason enough for this automated mass analysis not to become an everyday tool for police. But the collated data also lands in the deliberately opaque software of the US company Palantir, which the police will become dependent on for years," said Kurz."


German police expands use of Palantir surveillance software – DW – 08/04/2025

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This predictive policing is coming to a town or city near you, and fast.
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"Across Europe and the US, Gotham is already being used in predictive policing programs. In the UK, a project called Nectar is piloting Palantir's technology with nine police forces, including Bedfordshire and Leicestershire. The software integrates sensitive data: criminal records, mental health reports, children's data, victim statements, financial activity, and even political views.

?£800,000 contract between Leicester Police and Palantir has been DELETED from public record

The company has undefineda worrying history of racial profiling and surveillance concerns in the USAundefined, @ShockatAdam MP explains

We need transparency not secretive, intrusive & discriminatory… pic.twitter.com/5kVMoeTFyA
undefined Big Brother Watch (@BigBrotherWatch) June 2, 2025

Police say the system helps prevent crime. Palantir points to early results: 120 at-risk youths identified within the first eight days. But critics argue this amounts to profiling by proxy. Individuals can be flagged simply for being in the wrong place or showing up in someone else's file."

Palantir’s rise masks a surveillance risk​ | Cybernews

The writing is already on the wall across the Pond.