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Only one B-17 returned from their flight
#1
A heavily loaded B-17 was lucky to cruise at over 180 knots. The German fighters were were speeding along at up to 340 to 452 in a dive depending on the model and year.... so without fighter coverage/escort our massive fleets of bombers were sitting ducks. I had friends who flew the 17s and the B-24s.. None expected to live through the war. 


I also had a friend who flew BF-109s during WW2 who said he tried not to fly through a tight bomber formation as it was mostly suicide

No one rules if no one obeys

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire
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#2
My father was on the Schweifurt raids in 1943! 

381st Bombardment Group Heavy 533rd squadron, based out of Ridgewell, England.  B-17's.

He spoke of Schweinfurt often, and he rarely spoke about the war (except to me).  Half of the aircraft were to return to bases in England, and the other half were to continue on to Africa following the raids.  Most never made either.  Dad flew (68) missions...it took (24) to go home (3 full tours).  Crashed (3) times, shot down twice, once in occupied France (returning from Schweinfurt), once in England and got his Caterpillar Award for having to bail out over Missouri.

The aircraft he was in for the Rheims raid, Big Mike, was heavily damaged on the mission.  They made it back across the Channel, but crashed at Ridgewell with (2) engines out, (1) on fire and (1) operational.  Several of the crew had been KIA.  Only one of the mains was operational.  Landed in the rain and slid off the runway into a large ditch, tearing off the left wing.  A crazy crew chief named Frenchy (a French Canadian from Louisiana) said he could rebuild the plane, but parts were almost non-existent at the time.  He ultimately scavenged a wing from a B-17G model and attached it to Big Mike (a B-17F model).  This required permission from Curtis LeMay himself.  When the plane was finished it was renamed 'Frenchy's Folly'. 

At first, no one was willing to fly on Frenchy's Folly, so they took volunteers.  By this point my father had the reputation that he couldn't be killed.  Without an aircraft assigned, he readily volunteered.  As soon as this happened they suddenly had too many volunteers to fly on Frenchy's Folly (they all wanted to fly with the guy who always came home).

I told this story once before, on a very popular (then) firearms forum.  One day I got a reply from a girl who signed up just to send me a note.  Her grandfather was Frenchy, and he remembered Dad well.  Sadly, my father had passed away just one month prior to that day.  At the time, Frenchy was nearing his 100th birthday.  I would have loved to make a reunion between those two happen.

I was fortunate to have been told this and many other stories about WWII (the story(s) above are the short version).  The story about crash landing in occupied France is a particularly harrowing story including a shootout on the ground with an SS unit.

Brave men (and women) who fought for Freedom and a way of life.  Sacrifice beyond anything we will ever know.  May they rest in eternal peace.

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A bit of B-17 trivia from WWII. 

Engine fires were both common and difficult to extinguish on the B-17.  The B-17 was equipped with fire extinguishers, but they were seldom effective.  The best way the air crews found to extinguish an engine fire was to go into a steep dive.  The dive would be conducted at (or even above) maximum airspeed.  The increased airspeed would make the fire burn much more intensely so the engine could burn through the engine mounts and fall away...before the wing caught fire and exploded.

Dad always used to say it was funny all the creative things people will think of when the alternative was...going to a Nazi POW camp (or worse).
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#3
A couple of tactical points stand out to me. First, the limited range of the P-47 Thunderbolt and Spitfires leaves the Luftwaffe to attack the B-17 formations relatively unhindered. Second, close escort roles handicap fighters by tying them to bomber formations.

Moreover, RAF bomber command and their American counterparts who bailed out of enemy-occupied territory are taken prisoner of war (POW). Fortunately, the Luftwaffe was eventually defeated, but elements of the Battle of Britain were reserved. During the Battle of Britain, the Bf 109's short range was an operational handicap—also, the German airmen who bailed out ended up as POWs.

Lastly, the Bf 109's limited endurance clouded similar issues with the bomber escort role.
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#4
(07-22-2024, 04:09 AM)xpert11 Wrote: A couple of tactical points stand out to me. First, the limited range of the P-47 Thunderbolt and Spitfires leaves the Luftwaffe to attack the B-17 formations relatively unhindered. Second, close escort roles handicap fighters by tying them to bomber formations.

Moreover, RAF bomber command and their American counterparts who bailed out of enemy-occupied territory are taken prisoner of war (POW). Fortunately, the Luftwaffe was eventually defeated, but elements of the Battle of Britain were reserved. During the Battle of Britain, the Bf 109's short range was an operational handicap—also, the German airmen who bailed out ended up as POWs.

Lastly, the Bf 109's limited endurance clouded similar issues with the bomber escort role.

Dad absolutely had little love loss for the P-47.  He always said, right about the time things started getting really "hairy" (as he called it) over Germany they'd have to turn around to go home.  This was no reflection on the pilots, but rather the range limitations of the aircraft itself.  He said when the North American P-51 Mustangs showed up it was a whole different game. 

Historically, the P-47 was a superstar in ground attack roles, but in air cover roles it couldn't turn fast enough, nor climb fast enough against the Me-109's.  It could take an astounding amount of punishment, but this didn't mean much to the bomber crews who were depending on it to defend them against the Me-109's.  The strengths of the P-47 were in dive attack roles and it did have a capable max ceiling, so as long as it stayed high early in the fight it was helpful, but once it got down below the bombers it was vulnerable due to it having to lumber back up to altitude.  Later in the war the range of the P-47 was increased, and this helped, but according to my Pops the happiest thing in the world to his eyes back in those days was to see the P-51's show up.

I asked Dad once what scared him the most.  His answer was surprising to me.  Despite the immense Luftwaffe fighter menace, he said the only thing which really terrified him and other crews was the flak.  He often said the flak was so heavy it looked like you could get out of the plane and walk on it.  The flak jackets they were issued were heavy and awkward, so what the crews would do is take them off and stand on them (so they wouldn't get their balls blown off).  Most flak injuries came from below, thus standing on the vests was actually a pretty good defense.  He often told a story about a tail-gunner they had who was terrified of flak.  Crews called it "flak-happy".  Guys would freak out and panic.  He would beg all the other crew members for their flak armor and then use it to line the area in the tail where his station was.  The weight was so great on one mission the pilot had to trim the aircraft to compensate.  Sadly, he was killed by Me-109 cannons from the side.

I'll have to see if I can find it, but somewhere around here I have a picture Dad took of the inside of one of his B-17's following a mission.  He was standing just aft of the radio console on a mission when a 4" diameter hole appeared in the floor and ceiling of the aircraft simultaneously.  It was a flak round set for a higher altitude which went right "through" the aircraft just in front of where he was standing.  Said if he'd have taken one more step, well, I wouldn't be writing this right now.

How anyone survived sh!t like this just amazes me.  I always looked up to my father as a hero, but he always said he was just doing a job like the tens of thousands of other soldiers during those dark times.


 

(07-22-2024, 04:09 AM)xpert11 Wrote: A couple of tactical points stand out to me. First, the limited range of the P-47 Thunderbolt and Spitfires leaves the Luftwaffe to attack the B-17 formations relatively unhindered. Second, close escort roles handicap fighters by tying them to bomber formations.

Moreover, RAF bomber command and their American counterparts who bailed out of enemy-occupied territory are taken prisoner of war (POW). Fortunately, the Luftwaffe was eventually defeated, but elements of the Battle of Britain were reserved. During the Battle of Britain, the Bf 109's short range was an operational handicap—also, the German airmen who bailed out ended up as POWs.

Lastly, the Bf 109's limited endurance clouded similar issues with the bomber escort role.
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Another tactical point - RAF Lancaster bombers rarely operated during the day, opting for night missions instead.  This made them far less effective than their American B-17 and B-24 counterparts which operated almost exclusively during the day.

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If I'm not mistaken over 75% of the aircraft on the Regensberg leg of the Schweinfurt-Regensberg mission who were slated to go to North Africa either crashed en-route, ran out of fuel, or were so badly damaged once they reached North Africa that they were unable to fly again in the war.
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#5
P-51s

B-24s

No one rules if no one obeys

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire
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