More Glitches in the ATS Matrix

[Maxmars]

Not a lawyer.  Can't make assertions about the state of the law except as an opinion (which I'm willing to bet will be 'wrong' in some manner.)

While it is true that entire object of posting on social media is not to keep secrets or make money, it does not translate that posters "have no rights" with regard to what they post.  After all, we simultaneously must accept responsibility for what we post.  Where there are responsibilities, there are rights.

Should "we contributors" actually be left in the uncomfortable position of NOT being allowed to "secure" our own inputs and efforts to create?

I think this will be an important matter, not to be simplistically discarded as "of course you can't have it" it "belongs" to the commercial site as "property."

But by that token, if it is provided freely, anyone should (in theory) have access to it... even if it is to "train" AI.

The issue with "scraping" is how much it impacts the service itself, since it is intensely machine-taxing, rendering users to suffer the impacts on the system itself.

Now "industrial" scraping is another matter.  They are doing it for some manner of "profit" and that makes it germane to commerce law.

[l0st]

"Worse" and "Better" are subjective in this context.  I disagree that politics made ATS worse.  I personally think it made ATS even more relevant.  Worser or better-er.  Politics made ATS worse for some people today, and better for the same people tomorrow (on a different subject).  It depended on the day. 

How many times can Roswell be discussed, or Area 51, or Bigfoot, or some blurry picture?  Politics are the new conspiracy du jour. 

What made politics 'worse' for some people was when their own personal political ideology got challenged.  This wasn't some distant blurry picture which was taken thousands of miles from their back yard, it was something real, and something right on their front doorstep.  It affected them personally.  It was reality, sometimes going upside their head with an opposing and equally credible viewpoint.

Politics may have made ATS 'worse' for the moderators, because it required much more 'work' to moderate fairly (and some were not able to do this).  Discussions were much more passionate and filled with emotion because they were closer to people's hearts, they had an actual and real effect on their lives...today.  Politics wasn't some distant concept, or some fantastical thing, it was real and it was in their face. 

Politics was one of the things I loved most about ATS.  Just about every discussion on any topic can be distilled down to politics...even Roswell, Area 51 and Bigfoot.  With politics included ATS rose to the highest levels it ever got to prior to that.  Oh sure, some old-time members got disgusted because their favorite topics were getting squashed by all the other noise, but then 'mud pit' was created to contain that.  With politics included at ATS, people could discuss anything at all; there were no limits to discussions.  When I first joined ATS in 2013 the ATS stats were still climbing, and 'mud pit' had long been established by then.  ATS was a bastion of free speech, something few other websites can achieve.

The mantra of this website is "Deny Ignorance", and one would be doing the exact opposite of this by denying that politics have a very real impact on people's lives today.  It would be denying reality, which is the antithesis of denying ignorance.

I feel that I am on the same page with you with nearly all of this, but I'll disagree with ruining ATS. The discussions had there and the stellar moderation that allowed them to happen IMHO have not existed on any other CT sites anywhere on the Internet and the loss of this forum of discussion is almost the "silver spike" that will kill the community entirely if it has not already.

I agree that it's nearly impossible to talk CT without politics. They are, on many levels, intertwined. The issues arise with HOW these discussions are handled, in my opinion. Making a statement about how one disagrees with a premise is one thing, personally ttacking and even sometimes stalking and harassing other users both online and IRL draws a line in my book.

---

Not a lawyer.  Can't make assertions about the state of the law except as an opinion (which I'm willing to bet will be 'wrong' in some manner.)

While it is true that entire object of posting on social media is not to keep secrets or make money, it does not translate that posters "have no rights" with regard to what they post.  After all, we simultaneously must accept responsibility for what we post.  Where there are responsibilities, there are rights.

Should "we contributors" actually be left in the uncomfortable position of NOT being allowed to "secure" our own inputs and efforts to create?

I think this will be an important matter, not to be simplistically discarded as "of course you can't have it" it "belongs" to the commercial site as "property."

But by that token, if it is provided freely, anyone should (in theory) have access to it... even if it is to "train" AI.

The issue with "scraping" is how much it impacts the service itself, since it is intensely machine-taxing, rendering users to suffer the impacts on the system itself.

Now "industrial" scraping is another matter.  They are doing it for some manner of "profit" and that makes it germane to commerce law.

I think, at least in the US, any scraping of data can be interpreted by the courts as "scraping for profit" ergo my personal conundrum on this issue.

If someone with access to darko wants to convince him to hand over the message DB for indexing, I'm willing to do that and would be much easier than scraping. I highly doubt this will happen, though. I'm really not interested in anything other than indexing the text content of the original messages as they were posted and for no other reason to allow others to benefit from the research that has been accomplished there over the last 20x years.

I can't speak for ATSs current service plan, but the roughly 160GB proposed on ATS could be a significant data bill for the current owner if not unlimited.

And anyways, the data I personally really want (Fukushima) has been inaccessible for years so far as I know so anything I do would be for the benefit of the community as a whole and not necessarily for myself personally.

[FlyingClayDisk]

I feel that I am on the same page with you with nearly all of this, but I'll disagree with ruining ATS. The discussions had there and the stellar moderation that allowed them to happen IMHO have not existed on any other CT sites anywhere on the Internet and the loss of this forum of discussion is almost the "silver spike" that will kill the community entirely if it has not already.

I agree that it's nearly impossible to talk CT without politics. They are, on many levels, intertwined. The issues arise with HOW these discussions are handled, in my opinion. Making a statement about how one disagrees with a premise is one thing, personally ttacking and even sometimes stalking and harassing other users both online and IRL draws a line in my book.

I agree with the stellar moderation.  No argument there...for the most part.  BUT, there were 'some' moderators who were not able to do this objectively.  Fortunately, they were the exception and not the rule.

I also agree with you on the decorum issue, or more specifically the lack thereof.  However, this is a symptom of all social media, not just ATS.  I personally trace this deteriorating decorum back to the use of the smartphone, and social media's growing dependence on it.  If you look across all social media you will see a direct correlation between the emergence of the cell phone and text based messaging (where everything is compressed down to 280 characters or less), and the rapid decline in mature personal behavior and decorum.  People cut out the decorum in favor of insults to get their point across in less space.

So, while I agree with your points, I don't agree with ATS and/or politics on ATS as being the root cause for the negative elements you correctly point out.

[l0st]

I agree with the stellar moderation.  No argument there...for the most part.  BUT, there were 'some' moderators who were not able to do this objectively.  Fortunately, they were the exception and not the rule.

I also agree with you on the decorum issue, or more specifically the lack thereof.  However, this is a symptom of all social media, not just ATS.  I personally trace this deteriorating decorum back to the use of the smartphone, and social media's growing dependence on it, with the rapid decline in mature personal behavior and decorum.  If you look across all social media you will see a direct correlation between the emergence of the cell phone and text based messaging (where everything is compressed down to 280 characters or less).  People cut out the decorum in favor of insults to get their point across in less space.

So, while I agree with your points, I don't agree with ATS and/or politics on ATS as being the root cause for the negative elements you correctly point out.

I agree that smartphones made it worse. Perhaps the availability to post anytime or also the availability to a clientele that is perhaps "of lesser caliber" who cannot separate their personal beliefs from critical thinking.

To me, sites like ATS were designed for thinkers and to make other people think critically about what has been posed to them.

However, trolling goes all the way back to Usenet, IRC, and BBSes and while those elements have always existed, they were not always as forcefully placed into the "town square" so to speak.

I know things maybe got out of control in the later years. I also think a lot of the "better" posters stopped responding with measured, researched responses and just started trolling back, I know I did, and I admit that. I know of numerous people who were banned from ATS and similar sites for posting personal viewpoints who felt slighted and later "returned" (under new account) with the explicit intent to troll the trolls out of business. I know I am not alone on this. At some point you have to play the game the same way it is being played to you and I don't think anyone can be faulted for that except ownership who probably should've 86'd the political forums as soon as revenues declined. Water under the bridge.

[KKLoco]

My GAWD are we in kindergarten?! So a couple kids in the classroom can’t play nice. Now, teacher is taking toys away as punishment. 

I just don’t understand why it is so difficult to NOT click on a thread. You don’t like politics - then don’t fucking click on it! Don’t tune in! It’s just that simple!

It’s the same people that complain about politics on ATS - that are the most triggered in discussions about it.

Me personally, I did not come to ATS looking for any politics. I was all for the alternative topics. Ironically, I evolved as a person in well over 15 years since then. Now, I appreciate the fact that the political topics are there. It saves me from having to turn on CNN or FOX (and wade through the bullshit) to find out what’s going on in the world. Because unfortunately, political decisions DO affect me on a daily basis.

[Maxmars]

My GAWD are we in kindergarten?! So a couple kids in the classroom can’t play nice. Now, teacher is taking toys away as punishment. 

I just don’t understand why it is so difficult to NOT click on a thread. You don’t like politics - then don’t fucking click on it! Don’t tune in! It’s just that simple!

It’s the same people that complain about politics on ATS - that are the most triggered in discussions about it.

Me personally, I did not come to ATS looking for any politics. I was all for the alternative topics. Ironically, I evolved as a person in well over 15 years since then. Now, I appreciate the fact that the political topics are there. It saves me from having to turn on CNN or FOX (and wade through the bullshit) to find out what’s going on in the world. Because unfortunately, political decisions DO affect me on a daily basis.

I tend to be a little more forgiving of the exasperation.

After all, it is nigh impossible to discuss some conspiracy theories with out including a political component.  Further, politics is seen as a root element within many conspiracy theories, so intrigue and interest in the politics of today is natural.  Members seeking that form of engagement found ATS (and hopefully DI) welcoming of the exploration... and grew to anticipate and appreciate it for it's rarity.

Of course, where that goes astray is in the expectation that a topic about politics today includes more than simple politician/party-bashing.  That when you visit a topic of political nature, you expect that it isn't just a partisan treatise with no conspiratorial point.  It can be - and is - frustrating and disappointing to search for discussion and be confronted with memery, hackery, and theatricality.  So they vent.  Even I vented.

At different points, I would call out that it is all theater, and where you see theater, you simply don't have to engage... but to little avail.  I would stress that it is opinion only, but was met with silence for the most part.  Some posters distinguish themselves with intense hatefulness towards a particular political person, or ideology, or even religion.  They "self-identify" as it were.  From there it can get hairy, "reactions with drama," I call it.

But in the end, your point is well made.  If you find a food that gives you heartburn, the solution is simple. Don't eat that anymore. (And no, "Tums" isn't a "solution.")

[FlyingClayDisk]

I tend to be a little more forgiving of the exasperation.

After all, it is nigh impossible to discuss some conspiracy theories with out including a political component.  Further, politics is seen as a root element within many conspiracy theories, so intrigue and interest in the politics of today is natural.  Members seeking that form of engagement found ATS (and hopefully DI) welcoming of the exploration... and grew to anticipate and appreciate it for it's rarity.

Of course, where that goes astray is in the expectation that a topic about politics today includes more than simple politician/party-bashing.  That when you visit a topic of political nature, you expect that it isn't just a partisan treatise with no conspiratorial point.  It can be - and is - frustrating and disappointing to search for discussion and be confronted with memery, hackery, and theatricality.  So they vent.  Even I vented.

At different points, I would call out that it is all theater, and where you see theater, you simply don't have to engage... but to little avail.  I would stress that it is opinion only, but was met with silence for the most part.  Some posters distinguish themselves with intense hatefulness towards a particular political person, or ideology, or even religion.  They "self-identify" as it were.  From there it can get hairy, "reactions with drama," I call it.

But in the end, your point is well made.  If you find a food that gives you heartburn, the solution is simple. Don't eat that anymore. (And no, "Tums" isn't a "solution.")

Max...you use too many words.

Just too many words.

So, do you see me now? (over here?), (or, over here?)...(or, over here?).

Do you see me now?

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFKjseb4q0]

[broccoli]

.................

You got toys?

[Maxmars]

Max...you use too many words.

Just too many words.

So, do you see me now? (over here?), (or, over here?)...(or, over here?).

Do you see me now?

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFKjseb4q0]

Self-editing has never been a hobby of mine.  I'm just not witty enough to be brief.  

[FlyingClayDisk]

Self-editing has never been a hobby of mine.  I'm just not witty enough to be brief.  

You have been deceived.  It’s all a “show” wherein you are a spectator, a victim…of whatever direction “they” wish to push you.  The grand deception.  This is their end-game…right now.

This is the game “they” want you to believe; this is all the marbles.  This is “IT”

We, as a people, must understand this is the limit of being manipulated by the media; this is the end.  Things will HAVE to change now.   They just HAVE to…there is no other choice…if we are to remain as a democratic republic…they just HAVE to…regardless of who assumes command.

We live in dangerous times right now.

Gawd help us.

It's....MAJIK!!

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14hyBwfJqkA]

---

You have been deceived.  It’s all a “show” wherein you are a spectator, a victim…of whatever direction “they” wish to push you.  The grand deception.  This is their end-game…right now.

This is the game “they” want you to believe; this is all the marbles.  This is “IT”

We, as a people, must understand this is the limit of being manipulated by the media; this is the end.  Things will HAVE to change now.   They just HAVE to…there is no other choice…if we are to remain as a democratic republic…they just HAVE to…regardless of who assumes command.

We live in dangerous times right now.

Gawd help us.

It's....MAJIK!!

[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14hyBwfJqkA]

And...who "won" in the end???

It was the guy who was trying to catch them!  Only he could have figured out the deception, BUT..."WE" don't have such a person!

No, "WE" are victims of this whole deception, as far as they wish to play it...UNTIL we no longer accept this as reality, and instead recognize it as deception.

You guys think I lie to you, but I'm really on ALL of our sides.  I've seen a slice of life many don't get to see, and it is evil to the core of the most evil anyone can comprehend.

I'm not selling something (this is what most people do), but I'm not selling anything...not anything at all.  All I ask for is for people to "open their eyes" to the world going on around them.  Look at your investments, look at your day to day life...look at everything, and you decide.  Am I lying?  Am I?

That choice is yours.

---

People can fight "ME" as a person, they can say..."I HATE you, FCD!!!", and this is all 'okay'; I don't fault them for this.  They just don't understand.

Then, ...all of a sudden..., you realize...."Hey, maybe there was something I missed right there!"....And, before you know it, whatever that was just vanishes.  (Gone)

Folks, we live in a world of deception.  We can realize this, wake up and deal with it...OR we can do what we do right now...be apathetic...and NOT CARE!

We live in a world of deception, much of this from the Main Stream Media (MSM)...they are programming us.  They are making us robots.  We can choose to accept it, or we can say..."NO!!"

I vote..."NO!!"

We must move on, move forward...I BELIEVE...and I will always "believe" until my last breath!!  I WILL!  I will NEVER give up!