Let's cut through the BS. Do GUNS kill people, OR...

[boredhere74]

I cut out a fair bit of your reply because I wanted to focus on these two statements, not because I am dismissing what you have said.  It was a fair enough reply.

I don't have the exact statistics, but I'm more than confident my estimates are WAY low with what I'm about to say.  In the US drivers cut off other drivers probably hundreds of times every second of every day.  There are roughly 285 million vehicles in the US.  Conservative estimates are that 10-12% of those vehicles will be on the road at any one given time, so let's say 28 million (and that's probably low).  There are roughly 395 million privately owned firearms in the US.  If even 5% of those were being carried at any one time, this would equate to roughly 20 million.  Let's say that 5 million of those drivers are armed.  Consequently...

The notion that (every) armed driver's "first response" to being cut off in traffic is to jump out and start shooting...is a wildly exaggerated assertion.  Furthermore, it is exactly these kinds of wildly exaggerated assertions which makes arguments such as mine both necessary and relevant.  It's simply not true.  If it were true, there would be tens of thousands of firearms fatalities every...single...day on America's roadways.  And, we know this isn't the case, yet the gun grabbers love to use exaggerated arguments such as this to justify their actions.  This, all while failing to accept (and DEMAND) personal accountability and responsibility before piling more legislation on top of already voluminous legislation.

Secondly, yes gangsters in the '20's and '30's wreaked havoc with 'machine guns', but society wasn't brought to the brink of extinction because of these firearms.  Far from it.  In fact, "machine guns" (i.e. fully automatic firearms) were legal to own in the US up until 1986, fully 60 years later.  And, while we're at it, let's take a look at what was happening in 1986 when Reagan passed the National Firearms Act.  Where there mass shooting events at schools back then?  Nope.  Were large swaths of society being mowed down by machine guns in 1986?  Nope.  The NFA was a political concession by Reagan to assuage the gun grabbing left at the time, one he believed would get them to back off...but they didn't, only doubled down since then. 

Lastly, and I can't stress this enough...what has changed in the recent decades?  Not guns.  People have changed.  We will have to agree to disagree on the point that the only purpose of a gun is to kill.  Guns, like nuclear weapons, are also a deterrent.  They often also prevent bad people from doing bad things without even being fired.  So, this is my rejoinder to the notion that a firearm's only purpose is to "kill".  Earlier in this thread another member posted an Indiana Jones clip.  You saw a man with a sword who surely would have "killed" Indiana Jones had he not possessed a firearm to defend himself.  In the absence of that firearm, well, it would have been a sword against a bullwhip, not much of a match.  Point being, people will find a method to kill if this is their "intent"...and this has been proven the world over.  If they don't have a firearm...they'll find another way.  Once again, the firearm is just a tool; it's the "intent" which matters.

 

LOL!  That's okay, I think I did too!  Likewise, thanks for listening (or reading, as it were).

Cheers!

You can still own a fully automatic weapon. But like you said must be made before 1986.

[pianopraze]

Guns kill people like forks make you fat.

Bigger issue is do governments oppress and kill people after they disarm their citizens?

[FlyingClayDisk]

Guns kill people like forks make you fat.

Bigger issue is do governments oppress and kill people after they disarm their citizens?

Great point!  I love that!

In fact, I'm stealing it!  "Guns kill people like forks make you fat!"...CLASSIC!!

Probably the best analogy I've ever heard in this context!  Seriously!.
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You can still own a fully automatic weapon. But like you said must be made before 1986.

Yes, true.  Reasonably priced and accessible to many?  Absolutely not, but you are correct...if manufactured before 1986, and to a person who has stupid amounts of cash to waste on one, yes, they can be purchased...(with a BATF tax stamp, another couple hundred bucks and about  2 year wait, but yes).

Last time I checked a fully automatic Form 4 M16, in 'fair' condition' was selling for about $19,000 bucks (and that was an 'A2' version too).  I'm sure if a person shopped around they might be able to find one cheaper, but $15k to $20k is the rough going rate today.

In any case, yes, you are correct.  I merely said they are not available simply because of the astonishing prices. 

I can remember seriously contemplating a full auto Armalite AR-18 back in about '81-'82.  I want to say it was priced at about $750 bucks (but I didn't have that kind of spending money, so I passed).  Huge mistake.  The gun shop I used to frequent was even willing to finance it for me, but I was already eating ramen noodles in college at the time and driving a 25 year old truck, so that would have been a mistake.  Always liked the early Armalites over the Colt 15's, but the Colts were hard to find due to their being military issue.  The Armalite AR-18 was a little longer (and also a bit heavier) than the Colt AR-15 at the time.

[KrustyKrab]

I chopped your text there to highlight several points.

Yes, they're tools...but their ONLY purpose is to kill.  I can use a knife to cut meat, carve something, clean fingernails, take a rock out of a horse's hoof, let the air out of a tire, remove a foreign object from a wound, peel a peach, peel a grape, trim back an overly enthusiastic vine from my house, perform an operation, remove an appendix, pry open a jar lid, stir paint, apply paint on a canvas (or somewhere else), apply mortar, carve clay, free a trapped animal, kill a fish...and lots more that I could list if I decided to sit down and try to be comprehensive.

Guns shoot bullets.  Bullets make holes in things.  These holes are designed to Make Things Dead (including paper targets.  Lots of targets give up their lives for bullets.) or to threaten death/injury/violence to someone.

Do I want them totally banned?  Nope.  I can see them useful in a few situations.

But...here's the thing:  many people in support of 2A (who own guns and are responsible) reach for a gun as a first response rather than trying other methods.   If you and I hear a bunch of noise at our front door... and it's night... and someone comes in, you're likely to grab a gun and shoot them.  I would call the cops, turn on the light and the cameras, and grab a wooden sword --because that might be someone who's at the wrong house accidentally or one of my kids surprising me or any number of relatively innocent things.

Guns are for killing.  I don't think you need to bring them to the grocery store (no tomato, in the entire history of the planet, has ever gone berserk in a grocery store and mowed down dozens of people along with their service dogs.)  I think that if you're a hunter or if you're trekking in the backwoods, a gun is absolutely a self-defense tool that you need.

You are also assuming that the guns are in the hands of people like yourself... and not in the hands of people who stole them from people like yourself.  If you want the numbers, the best I've got is that between 2017 and 2021, roughly 2 million guns in America were involved in crime  The people using those guns aren't like you or me, but they're getting the guns from people like you and me.  They even steal them from Border Agents to use in crimes

You're not thinking about them in terms of teenagers with grudges (like the one who killed so many students in Uvalde, Texas.

And that's the difference.  You're thinking of people like you, who are responsible and not quick to take offense.  We're thinking of friends and family who committed suicide, of criminals like the ones above, of street gangs, of gun owners who kill other family members, of teens wanting revenge on bullies and others.  When we ask "how do we deal with the above" the responses we get seem to be things like "arm the teachers" and "get another gun"... more killing and more death.

It doesn't seem to be a solution.  If we say "licensing and databases" the counterargument is "it's already a law" (but the counter to that is that 2A prone lawmakers often overturn these laws.)

I can understand that someone might want to have fun shooting a high capacity magazine (doesn't sound like fun to me, but... hey, whatever floats your boat) and would have no problem with licensed gun ranges having them for rent to use inside their facility.  They're pretty useless for hunting, but great for making lots of noise.

It'd be great if Americans could be acculturated to the idea that the first response to a threat (or someone cutting you off in traffic) is NOT to get out a gun and go after someone.

There's a reason gun laws were passed in the first place (and a reason why, after the Mafia gang wars, machine guns were outlawed for civilians.)  There's a reason why some towns in the Old West didn't allow guns.  There's a reason why military bases don't allow open carry (or weapons carry unless you've been issued it for a specific reason.)

And no, the gunman and his friends and a stockpile of weapons won't hold off an army...as Ukraine has shown.


...Wow... got kind of long-winded there, didn't I?  Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.  :)

Good luck with your wooden sword against someone breaking into your home to take your stuff and willing to kill you and your family if anyone gets in the way. You’ll be dead by the time the cops get there, that is if you even make it to a phone in time.

Just my opinion but I think it’s somewhat ignorant to not have a gun for self defense in today’s day n age and putting yourself in a position of being defenseless usually won’t end well for you. I’ve heard to many cases where homeowners lived because they had a gun. I know a couple of stories firsthand of people close to me that wouldn’t be here without a firearm.

With society getting more brazen and out of control and the mere fact criminals and gang members are armed to the teeth, my gun isn’t going anywhere. But I guess if you want to play the lottery and possibly find yourself in a situation of being completely defenseless, you do you. But there could come a time where you’d wish you had one.

BTW: Yes, people have shot people in all kinds of stores, grocery stores included. 10 people murdered at a buffalo grocery store a couple of years ago. 4 people murdered 9 wounded at a Arkansas grocery store just a few months ago. 10 murdered at a grocery store in Boulder a few years ago. So, yes they happen more frequently than you think.

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Guns kill people like forks make you fat.

Bigger issue is do governments oppress and kill people after they disarm their citizens?

Short answer…yes
1911: Turkey; citizens disarmed – 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered
1929: Russia; citizens disarmed – 20 million Russians murdered
1935: China; citizens disarmed – 20 million Chinese killed
1938: Germany; citizens disarmed – 6 million Jews murdered
1956: Cambodia; citizens disarmed – 1 million “intellectuals” killed
1964: Guatemala; citizens disarmed – 100,000 Mayan Indians massacred
1970: Uganda; citizens disarmed – 300,000 Christians put to death

You can throw Venezuela in their too, as well as Ukraine for giving up their nukes to Russia for guaranteed security from Russia. That didn’t age well for them, extremely bad call in hindsight.

Ugh there’s that 2 post different people, won’t separate from 1 post glitch again. Is that getting fixed? Sure is annoying.

[pianopraze]

Short answer…yes
1911: Turkey; citizens disarmed – 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered
1929: Russia; citizens disarmed – 20 million Russians murdered
1935: China; citizens disarmed – 20 million Chinese killed
1938: Germany; citizens disarmed – 6 million Jews murdered
1956: Cambodia; citizens disarmed – 1 million “intellectuals” killed
1964: Guatemala; citizens disarmed – 100,000 Mayan Indians massacred
1970: Uganda; citizens disarmed – 300,000 Christians put to death

You can throw Venezuela in their too, as well as Ukraine for giving up their nukes to Russia for guaranteed security from Russia. That didn’t age well for them, extremely bad call in hindsight.

Ugh there’s that 2 post different people, won’t separate from 1 post glitch again. Is that getting fixed? Sure is annoying.

Sooo… sounds like government stripping citizens of arms leads to a lot more deaths than a few armed citizens who go crazy and shoot others.

What influence does pharmaceuticals have on mass shootings?
 

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Great point!  I love that!

In fact, I'm stealing it!  "Guns kill people like forks make you fat!"...CLASSIC!!

Probably the best analogy I've ever heard in this context!  Seriously!.

Ban assault forks.

That will solve our obesity problem.

[FlyingClayDisk]

Sooo… sounds like government stripping citizens of arms leads to a lot more deaths than a few armed citizens who go crazy and shoot others.

What influence does pharmaceuticals have on mass shootings?
 

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Ban assault forks.

That will solve our obesity problem.

Agree (violently) on all points.

And yes, the post reply joining really is a PITA.  That one feature aggravates me daily (usually multiple times per day too).

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Ugh there’s that 2 post different people, won’t separate from 1 post glitch again. Is that getting fixed? Sure is annoying.

And you also have to pay attention to the quote boxes here on DI too.  I've tripped on that one numerous times also.  I wind up putting my text in a quote box by accident when it's really part of my reply because the site formats a reply sometimes into separate quote box when you try to reply line by line.  Major pain.

[KrustyKrab]

Agree (violently) on all points.

And yes, the post reply joining really is a PITA.  That one feature aggravates me daily (usually multiple times per day too).

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And you also have to pay attention to the quote boxes here on DI too.  I've tripped on that one numerous times also.  I wind up putting my text in a quote box by accident when it's really part of my reply because the site formats a reply sometimes into separate quote box when you try to reply line by line.  Major pain.

Yes, I’ve noticed some weird things in the reply/quote process also. I figured I was just doing something wrong (probably am somewhere). I know your well rehearsed in the codes and such, So I do feel a lil better that maybe I’m not totally inept and going crazy in my old age.

[FlyingClayDisk]

Yes, I’ve noticed some weird things in the reply/quote process also. I figured I was just doing something wrong (probably am somewhere). I know your well rehearsed in the codes and such, So I do feel a lil better that maybe I’m not totally inept and going crazy in my old age?

Yeah, I've had to go in and surgically modify format here with BB Code in some replies to get around some of that.  I only learned all the BB Code stuff because ATS pretty much forced you to understand it, otherwise you had to go through their stupid formatting buttons which was about as fun as chewing on tinfoil!

You're not crazy at all.  It's a glitch in this site, and I've brought it up on several occasions as have several others.

[Kurokage]

So let's cut through all the bullshit.  Do GUNS kill people, OR do the (twisted) PEOPLE who use guns kill people unlawfully?

I'm so sick of this debate.  It's not even a "debate" really, it's more of a liberal echo chamber on the subject......

I think you've already made your mind up within the first two sentences, and are calling the people who diasgree with you 'liberals in an echo chamber" so you're not really here to discuss it are you??

I do agree with the member that said "Guns kill people like forks make you fat." though.

In my opinion Americans are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to gun ownership.
You have it ingrained into that it's your 'God given right' to own a firearm with no one allowed to tell you anything different, so stomp and moan at any mention of being forced to be educatated on proper ownership, care and storage by your government or have it regulated by your government or state. A 'standard' if you will for gun ownership, which should be part of any decent militia.

I've personally seen this played out by an 'idiot' who's given my brother (We're British) all the 'mightier than thou' talks and the 'it's my right' bull. They're friends and have visted each other over the years. My brother and I are both martial artists with a few years under our belts using Katana amongst other things and understand the dangers of leaving around 'cutting' swords (theft, injury).
A few years back by brothers friend blew his knee out whilst cleaning his firearm, and lost his house, with his family moving to seperate family accomadations because of the costs.   Understanding the ownership of a deadly weapon should be on par or above the belief in the 2nd Amendment, and not below it or even forgot about.

[pianopraze]

I think you've already made your mind up within the first two sentences, and are calling the people who diasgree with you 'liberals in an echo chamber" so you're not really here to discuss it are you??

I do agree with the member that said "Guns kill people like forks make you fat." though.

In my opinion Americans are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to gun ownership.
You have it ingrained into that it's your 'God given right' to own a firearm with no one allowed to tell you anything different, so stomp and moan at any mention of being forced to be educatated on proper ownership, care and storage by your government or have it regulated by your government or state. A 'standard' if you will for gun ownership, which should be part of any decent militia.

I've personally seen this played out by an 'idiot' who's given my brother (We're British) all the 'mightier than thou' talks and the 'it's my right' bull. They're friends and have visted each other over the years. My brother and I are both martial artists with a few years under our belts using Katana amongst other things and understand the dangers of leaving around 'cutting' swords (theft, injury).
A few years back by brothers friend blew his knee out whilst cleaning his firearm, and lost his house, with his family moving to seperate family accomadations because of the costs.   Understanding the ownership of a deadly weapon should be on par or above the belief in the 2nd Amendment, and not below it or even forgot about.

Thank you.

Maybe we should regulate people’s shopping budget. Government control over how many calories you can consume per day.

Does obesity and it’s complication cause more deaths than gun deaths?