How the ancients navigated

[andy06shake]

At the price of looking like an idiot, I have been thinking about how the ancients could have navigated the Oceans if the suspicion was true that there indeed was indeed a worldwide civilization around the time of the last Ice age.
 I think the Great Pyramid was the major marker not quite at the 23.5 parallel but near enough it might even have had been the summer solstice marker when it was constructed for the purpose of this example.
 The technique is simple enough, and rests on the fact that the suns ground position changes by about a degree each day which is sixty nautical miles. The Sun at the solstices reaches 23.5 degrees north in the northern hemisphere and the same in the southern hemisphere at roughly the tropic of Capricorn. This method requires a static marker like the known position of the GP or in modern times a place on the map or chart. I will give a practical example.
 Say I am in the Western Pacific Ocean on the day of the summer solstice, I know that the suns ground position for that day tracks the 23.5 degrees south line of latitude. Thats as far south as the sun goes south. I look on the Chart and notice that if the suns ground position went down to Sydney. Then it would be... off the top of my head about fifteen days sun distances from Sydney to the 23.5 line of lattitude. I draw a line on the chart from Sydney up to the 23.5 lattitude line,and wait for the sunset that day,In modern times I go out on deck and as the last glimmer of the setting sun shines over the horizon I take a compass bearing of it, Knowing that Sydney is fifteen sun positins south of it , the compass will read approximately fifteen degrees less, so I note the two compass results, and draw the lines on my chart and triangulate my position on the ocean. In Ancient times a hinged stick would do the same thing. Not as precise as present day GPS but with a skillful operator a feasible way to draw a map or chart Islands, without an accurate chronometer.

The problem is that the Sun’s "ground position" or "subsolar point" isn’t visible from afar.

So it can’t be used like a lighthouse.

And the assumption that you can estimate distance or bearing based on sunset angle without precise timekeeping is inaccurate.

Because triangulation requires known distances or fixed angles, which ancient mariners lacked without accurate clocks.

Then there is the fact that sunset bearings vary with date and latitude, so are in no way reliable by degree per day.

[midicon]

The Vikings used magnets, perhaps other cultures did too.

[annonentity]

Did you actually read and comprehend what I wrote?   You are not using the sun as a lighthouse you are using it sunrise or sunset to mark your place of observation to the latitude in real terms of that days suns latitude , which is called the subsolar point which will not very much on the latitude line from sun up to sundown. If you know the latitude and longitude of a place north or south of the suns sub solar point for that day and the distance, it is on a map from it due north or due south. Then you work out the nautical miles expressed in degrees and have a fixed known point to triangulate from you are just using the sun for the sub solar point it won't be directly north or south of the known place  but the distance from the known point to the latitude line the sun took that day will because the due north or south longitude line will bisect it at the time you observe the sunset or sunrise.

[MichSwampbuck]

They noticed all the natural signs that indicated they were on course or nearing land, shallows, or a good fishing area. They had a lot of practical knowledge that was passed down by word of mouth and learned from generations of experience.

[Byrd]

Did you actually read and comprehend what I wrote?   You are not using the sun as a lighthouse you are using it sunrise or sunset to mark your place of observation to the latitude in real terms of that days suns latitude , which is called the subsolar point which will not very much on the latitude line from sun up to sundown. If you know the latitude and longitude of a place north or south of the suns sub solar point for that day and the distance, it is on a map from it due north or due south. Then you work out the nautical miles expressed in degrees and have a fixed known point to triangulate from you are just using the sun for the sub solar point it won't be directly north or south of the known place  but the distance from the known point to the latitude line the sun took that day will because the due north or south longitude line will bisect it at the time you observe the sunset or sunrise.

The sticking point here is that if you're on land, people tended to navigate by landmarks (marking trees, etc.)  The surface is stable.  But on the ocean, where navigation is needed, the surface is not stable unless you're on a very massive ship.  One degree of latitude is around 69 miles, and it's a fairly small measurement on a sundial or something similar.  Navigation by "sail towards that star and when it gets too high, sail toward this other star (or right between them) would work a lot better and would keep you going straight throughout the night.

[annonentity]

There are lots of sticking points, but to navigate, you have to have a fixed destination in mind and a reason to go there. It would probably have to have a profit motive to make the risk worth the effort. Once the place had been found you had to have a way of finding it again. Plus a way back home to realize the profit. So the only logical way is to have a grid system on a globe. Plus if it was lucrative you would keep quiet about it.and the Navigating system.

[andy06shake]

Did you actually read and comprehend what I wrote?   You are not using the sun as a lighthouse you are using it sunrise or sunset to mark your place of observation to the latitude in real terms of that days suns latitude , which is called the subsolar point which will not very much on the latitude line from sun up to sundown. If you know the latitude and longitude of a place north or south of the suns sub solar point for that day and the distance, it is on a map from it due north or due south. Then you work out the nautical miles expressed in degrees and have a fixed known point to triangulate from you are just using the sun for the sub solar point it won't be directly north or south of the known place  but the distance from the known point to the latitude line the sun took that day will because the due north or south longitude line will bisect it at the time you observe the sunset or sunrise.

That's not how you reply to people little bit.

And that is a garbled mess of half-understood celestial navigation.

The sun isn’t some magical fixed marker, the subsolar point changes constantly, and it isn't a static reference for triangulation.

You’re confusing latitude with distance and misusing concepts like "due north or south longitude" which isn’t even a coherent phrase.

Navigators don’t “triangulate” from the sun’s subsolar point at sunrise or sunset because it's irrelevant at those angles, refraction and azimuth throw everything off.

If you're trying to sound clever, try learning actual spherical trigonometry first.

You're not doing celestial navigation, you're playing "Mad Libs" with astronomy terms.

If we are honest, you should have stopped at "At the price of looking like an idiot". 

[andy06shake]

There are lots of sticking points, but to navigate, you have to have a fixed destination in mind and a reason to go there. It would probably have to have a profit motive to make the risk worth the effort. Once the place had been found you had to have a way of finding it again. Plus a way back home to realize the profit. So the only logical way is to have a grid system on a globe. Plus if it was lucrative you would keep quiet about it.and the Navigating system.

This is armchair nonsense drenched in ignorance.

Early navigation wasn’t driven solely by profit.

People explored for food, faith, exile, or curiosity.

A “fixed destination” is idiotic when discovering unknown lands.

Profit didn't invent navigation, survival and exploration did.

Grid systems came centuries after people were already sailing vast oceans using stars, swells, wind, and memory.

Polynesians, Vikings, Arabs, none needed your laughable “globe logic.” And secrecy? Please.

Profitable routes became common knowledge, not selfish hoarding.

You’re rewriting history with the arrogance of someone who’s never left their couch but thinks they’ve cracked ancient navigation with capitalism and guesswork.

[annonentity]

Thats rich  Please try and take the the postulate theory of navigation to bits in a critical way. And tell me why it will not work. Do not do you usual shoot the messenger if you do not like the story.. You have the theory laid out now do one.

[Sirius]

modern maps? the stars are a map, you can draw the lines down to the earth. why are monuments aligned to the stars? the serpent path,  dragon path