How A Dead God Can Love

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Why is love a survival stategy/adaptation among most intelligent (fewest offspring) animals?
Is the universe indifferent or hostile?
Are there virtues to be had in chaos?

There's an overused cliche in philosophy that says "The map is not the terrain."

I have interpreted that as "No amount of ideological mapping can prepare you for your actual chaotic trip through the wilderness, but it can give you a general idea of the best way to survive."

But I guess that's too long to say.

I have a love/hate relationship with it. Hate it for being pretentious philosophy major stuff, but love it for being somewhat profound.

And therein is a problem I encounter in my religious debates. How can a non-interactive God still uphold the universal adage of "do good." Where is God's love if it never interacts.

I guess only if you anthropomorphize it's existence. A God that coded the universe to run a chaotic and adversity based program, also prompted the adaptations that arise to thrive in such a naturally hostile set of circumstances.

To use another cliche, "Without darkness, light means nothing."

And that's pretty much it. In a deterministic always known world, survival strategies, and charts of the territory are redundant.

It's secondary and adaptive benefits are second to none.

Our survival stategy is our empathy. Our ability to recognize another's plight and immediately relate it to ourselves in someway.

It not only categorizes threat but establishes bonds with each-other.

And it couldn't exist without a fucked up hostile universe to throw adversity at them.

What is the seemingly universal essence of love?

Our best damn defense against how it actually is.

[TzarChasm]

It all comes down to the "golden rule". Do unto others, blah blah. Love them as I have loved you. John 13:34

You can't love your neighbor if you don't love yourself. And what is a society without neighbors? What is a tree without leaves and blossoms? Does the tree bear fruit because the squirrel needs to eat? Does the squirrel bury nuts because it wants more trees to feed its descendants 50 years later? Is there purpose or is it all just happy coincidence?

Suffice it to say, God is a metaphor for a concept that is incredibly challenging to quantify in a universal tongue. That metaphor can be described as devotion, service, honor. These terms and lessons don't translate smoothly between cultures and so God is the word used to summarize this.

[BeyondKnowledge]

Suffice it to say, God is a metaphor for a concept that is incredibly challenging to quantify in a universal tongue. That metaphor can be described as devotion, service, honor. These terms and lessons don't translate smoothly between cultures and so God is the word used to summarize this.

That is the best and easiest to understand explanation of God I have ever seen or heard. Thank you.

[Nerb]

But sometimes it's hard to accept. Don't worry, keep breathing.

[Kwaka]

And therein is a problem I encounter in my religious debates. How can a non-interactive God still uphold the universal adage of "do good." Where is God's love if it never interacts.

In trying to define god, I see it as everything. From how physics, chemistry and biology all interact, up to planetary bodies and gigantic interstellar masses do their thing.

Life here on Earth has held a foot hold for a long time, millions of years? It is also resistant to a lot of realities like fires, floods and other devastations of nature that sweep through at times. It is a complicated place in how it all works. Diversity has been an asset in trying many different things to see what practically works in the search for a better way.

I am well aware just how painful, traumatic, stressful and confusing life can be at times. It does suck to go through such trials. It can also be motivating to find a better way. Some things like death we cannot control, It is just part of the program of birth. There is a bit more control over how we die. Do the right thing, don't play stupid games and the odds of a more fruitful and successful life increase.

As for saying god never interacts? Every interaction that goes on is a part of god. As for how we can get more in tune with it, listen to your instincts, reflect on your dreams, take the time to smell the roses and appreciate the day we do have. It is not going to last forever.

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

It all comes down to the "golden rule". Do unto others, blah blah. Love them as I have loved you. John 13:34

You can't love your neighbor if you don't love yourself. And what is a society without neighbors? What is a tree without leaves and blossoms? Does the tree bear fruit because the squirrel needs to eat? Does the squirrel bury nuts because it wants more trees to feed its descendants 50 years later? Is there purpose or is it all just happy coincidence?

Suffice it to say, God is a metaphor for a concept that is incredibly challenging to quantify in a universal tongue. That metaphor can be described as devotion, service, honor. These terms and lessons don't translate smoothly between cultures and so God is the word used to summarize this.

During covid I was troll/posting on this this occult site with my roommate. And there was this person there that argued that "There is a yet undiscovered force that effects biological life like a fundamental force." Like a chi almost. A life force that makes organic compounds have an extra divine directive imparted into them. Only profound thing I took from that site.

The reason life evolves so easily, regardless of the impossibility creationist argue, is because there is an unseen force, along the lines of an entropy the actually promotes making the random less random.

So I stole it and try to incorporate it with my deism.

I qualify character based things like honor and integrity as of that "initial directive" as it were. The essence of God, it the way that thrives most, and it always seems those things are in a type centered equilibrium.

[Nerb]

The reason life evolves so easily, regardless of the impossibility creationist argue, is because there is an unseen force, along the lines of an entropy the actually promotes making the random less random.

The force is called "Fear" isn't it?

It makes us try to define every possible thing so we live with familiarity rather than a growing metaphorical closet in the mind full of unknown monsters.

Those who fear the most often project their monsters and let them loose instead of controlling them inside.

Information is knowledge, knowledge is power, power is control, control is order, order is unentropic.

[Maxmars]

Perhaps most don't embrace the idea of a God that is personally relatable to a human mind...
as in a 'personal' god... with whom (and from whom) one can interact as a human, even if only in the mind.

I suppose I should explain that, in my mind, the perspective changes the argument that a dead 'anything' can love...

Like an exemplar of the overly dense, I presume the 'dead' in "dead God" is a metaphor...
since a quintessential aspect of godhood is spanning eternity....
In the context of God, 'death,' as I think we understand it,
is pretty much a like calling a sound 'orange.'

But this is all suppositional.  As in, for the sake of the argument...

Suppose you men that we (as one society) have abandoned, or at least distanced ourselves from...
... God, godliness, the matters of spirit, attunement to the nature of human life?

The secular word is an all encompassing "civilization"... but that does not quite measure up as a useful word, does it?

...

[after walking away, and rediscovering this half-post... ]

[Much of that was unintentional rambling...
I don't know how much would have survived editing but...
I trust you won't misunderstand me. ]

This wilderness has oases, glens, coves, even forests...
those too exist...
only problem...
there's only one path... yours.

There were never any others for you.

The proliferation of religious movements belies that reality.

I used to say, "Don't fret over not seeing a path,
most times the path finds you."  -  It's a perspective.

I have interpreted that as "No amount of ideological mapping can prepare you for your actual chaotic trip through the wilderness, but it can give you a general idea of the best way to survive."

(P.S. Not too long to say... it was well said... and well presented!)

From my perspective reads more broadly as, "There is no preparation for life... expect to be caught unawares..." but as for the rest I would wonder if it might also doom you to peril... (it can happen.)

I think, philosophies are usually - ultimately - distillations of reason,
crafted into a comprehensible structure, harmonious, self-supporting, and most quite formal...
but they don't tell you where to fish, when to bring in the cattle, when to store grain...

a single philosophy cannot be relied upon to guide governance without enforced compliance,...
certainly not beyond the the generation implementing it. 
I think it's analogous with individuals...

Life is rife with unanticipated circumstance, I inferred...
But does it limit one's range of 'thought' to be constrained to a philosophy? I wonder.
 
They alone are not a measure of life's manifestations... only about what we think.

You don't witness 'philosophy' in beauty... you find it.  The 'finding' is the thing... finding is like creating.

Not everyone sees philosophy from my perspective...

Hate it for being pretentious philosophy major stuff, but love it for being somewhat profound.

I have found profound truths obtusely ,but clearly, represented even in TV7 programming...
(must be accidentally produced - or missed in editing)
That which seems profound is often ignored except those who choose discernment.

"...How can a non-interactive God still uphold the universal adage of "do good." Where is God's love if it never interacts."

Why is it so easy for us to believe he is supposed "uphold" anything. 
"This is OUR test" some might point out.
Others might just say "God never existed at all."
But is it a cop out to suggest that God's love and "influence" not felt,
does not invalidate faith any more than not being able to prove God exists does.

Perhaps I might further suggest that common refrain may be right...
you might have to seek it out, assuming you want to.

I guess only if you anthropomorphize it's existence. A God that coded the universe to run a chaotic and adversity based program, also prompted the adaptations that arise to thrive in such a naturally hostile set of circumstances.

I would like to leave intentional anthromorphization to the myth-makers and scripture makers of old. 
Too easy to 'fingerprint' things with cultural baggage.
And besides... I lack proximity to the source to risk presuming to speak as if "I should know."

Not sure if our reasoning is up to the application of our ability to comprehend with "outcomes,"
but the interim is definitely chaotic from where I'm sitting.
 
I like to segregate the chaos into, what happened because we didn't know any better,
and chaos that was worsened because someone was supposed to 'chicken little' for us, but didn't. 

Rapid adaptation is a human thing... and I suspect it has always been unwelcome.

Our survival stategy is our empathy. Our ability to recognize another's plight and immediately relate it to ourselves in someway.

It not only categorizes threat but establishes bonds with each-other.

And it couldn't exist without a fucked up hostile universe to throw adversity at them.

What is the seemingly universal essence of love?

Our best damn defense against how it actually is.

"Your logic is sound."

If I may... I recently put a thing in another forum about "love."
It seemed, in timing, oddly synchronous with your thread... thanks! 

At the risk of pretense....

Cherish true love... it never leaves you, and only grows... unique among all emotional alchemy we might experience.

In strength, love can overpower even evil,
every evil you imagine but don't see, was likely defeated by love.
Love out-lasts even pride, endures guilt, pilots in uncertainty,
Somehow love offers solace and comfort, even in defeat.
Love waits, reflects itself...  when you feel love,
you cannot be alone... because you aren't.


[My deepest apologies to the IP and any members who probably hate long posts....
I was inspired by our hostess - it's her fault!]

[Sirius]

IP, I really hope one day you also witness miracles and see the interaction, because it's there all the time, all around us. Look up, open your heart and your mind and breathe in..

[Anna]

During covid I was troll/posting on this this occult site with my roommate. And there was this person there that argued that "There is a yet undiscovered force that effects biological life like a fundamental force." Like a chi almost. A life force that makes organic compounds have an extra divine directive imparted into them. Only profound thing I took from that site.
...

This is similar to the way I see God. The difference perhaps is that I perceive this force as conscious. It knows, it can feel and it permeats every living being. We anthropomorphize God, we imagine his attributes and create religions so that we can communicate with that creative force. I believe that the spark, breath of God, the soul is present not only in humans but also animals and plants.

I'm not really convinced the universe is hostile. Rather it's amoral. I think God is above what humans think is moral or not. I view morality not as something objective and universal but something that evolves with us, changing throughout the ages. The same applies to honor and integrity, which are purely subjective.

Nevertheless, I believe God cares for us in "his" own way, the way we don't actually understand. I view my dreams as the messages from God and see what looks as happy coincidences as little miracles.

As far as biology goes, love is indeed an adaptation mechanism. Organisms cooperate to survive. The fungi and tree roots "love" each other in their own way. That "love" benefits them both. Is there something more to it? I once had a dream about my friend's grandmother, whom I've never seen. She was hugging me and stroking my cheeks and I felt love emanating from her that I've never felt before.

Of course, the sceptics have a rational explanation for everything. This is why I'm not really into purely religious debates. Personal insights, intuition and beliefs cannot be supported with objective evidence so it's really pointless to argue with the folks who treat humans merely as meat machines born to f*ck and procreate. Likewise, it's counterproductive to debate a creationist living in his own echo chamber. Sure, science provides arguments but they won't get through to the brick wall.