Debunking Native American Fairy Tales

[Antidoppleganger]

Members here are familiar with certain bait thread behaviours, so that may be something you need to consider.

That's fair. I was recommending an approach of directing comments toward the material only. The merits of the 'speaker' (Walsh isn't really the source of facts, the facts already existed) and the poster should rely on the material.  If you can provide material that was omitted, contradictory, or supportive in a neutral manner discussions are ...less... likely to regress off of the real topic. Unless the 'speaker/presenter' is the topic of course. 

I do see some folks addressing facts with facts; I was concerned with how quickly, immediately even, gatekeeping began.

[Solvedit]

I see bias against the source tainting perception of the product. 

I have no issue with Matt Walsh but I just don't see how the natives' treatment of one another would justify taking their land.

[quintessentone]

That's fair. I was recommending an approach of directing comments toward the material only. The merits of the 'speaker' (Walsh isn't really the source of facts, the facts already existed) and the poster should rely on the material.  If you can provide material that was omitted, contradictory, or supportive in a neutral manner discussions are ...less... likely to regress off of the real topic. Unless the 'speaker/presenter' is the topic of course. 

I do see some folks addressing facts with facts; I was concerned with how quickly, immediately even, gatekeeping began.

We know when to quickly nip what with whom in the bud. And as ANNEE said, it did not prevent deeper discussions into the subject matter.

[Harte]

Would you say that proves there were no epidemics at any other time or in any other place in the Americas in the 1500s?  People have put forward graphs of a 90% decline in American native populations which seemed to happen in about a generation.  There were more people keeping track in Mexico and Central America but there is no reason to suspect that epidemics didn't spread.
Nonsense.  Epidemics spread.  Europeans were keeping records in Spanish America but who was keeping records in what became the eastern United States?

Diseases spread of course, and it doesn't take Europeans to spread them.
Smallpox had decimated the Inca before the Spanish even met them.

Harte

[Solvedit]

Diseases spread of course, and it doesn't take Europeans to spread them.
Smallpox had decimated the Inca before the Spanish even met them.

Harte

While it is not impossible that diseases can cross oceans, the sudden onset at around the time of contact suggests that smallpox may have crossed over from the old world via some sort of human activity.  

It is quite possible some sort of pirates had discovered and were starting to exploit the new world around the time of Columbus' voyages.  I read somewhere that Columbus' African pilot seemed to have some idea of where they were going and perhaps Columbus' drastic underestimation of the diameter of the Earth had something to do with his having gathered up rumors about how long it took to reach Brazil.  

It is possible the hypothetical pirates were careful enough not to use disease-carrying sailors and so the contact need not have started just after 1492 but could have been going on for some time, perhaps even helping fund the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople.  Then, perhaps a disease carrier escaped their vigilance.

[SteamyAmerican]

While it is not impossible that diseases can cross oceans, the sudden onset at around the time of contact suggests that smallpox may have crossed over from the old world via some sort of human activity.  

It is quite possible some sort of pirates had discovered and were starting to exploit the new world around the time of Columbus' voyages.  I read somewhere that Columbus' African pilot seemed to have some idea of where they were going and perhaps Columbus' drastic underestimation of the diameter of the Earth had something to do with his having gathered up rumors about how long it took to reach Brazil.  

It is possible the hypothetical pirates were careful enough not to use disease-carrying sailors and so the contact need not have started just after 1492 but could have been going on for some time, perhaps even helping fund the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople.  Then, perhaps a disease carrier escaped their vigilance.

What about carriers or vectors in the bilge or cargo holds?

[Solvedit]

What about carriers or vectors in the bilge or cargo holds?

It is possible the new world was visited before Columbus by people who tried to keep their crews free of smallpox but whose knowledge of epidemiology was not up to the task of preventing the spread of epidemics.  Perhaps whoever found South America were done in by the smallpox themselves.

It is also not impossible that someone decided to deliberately use disease against the natives.  Perhaps the king of Spain or someone else found out somehow and manipulated Columbus into thinking he could sail to India so Columbus would announce to Europe what a few already knew, which was the existence of the new world.  Perhaps the king or someone else realized that a land grab from some rival was imminent.

[Harte]

While it is not impossible that diseases can cross oceans, the sudden onset at around the time of contact suggests that smallpox may have crossed over from the old world via some sort of human activity.  

It is quite possible some sort of pirates had discovered and were starting to exploit the new world around the time of Columbus' voyages.  I read somewhere that Columbus' African pilot seemed to have some idea of where they were going and perhaps Columbus' drastic underestimation of the diameter of the Earth had something to do with his having gathered up rumors about how long it took to reach Brazil.  

It is possible the hypothetical pirates were careful enough not to use disease-carrying sailors and so the contact need not have started just after 1492 but could have been going on for some time, perhaps even helping fund the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople.  Then, perhaps a disease carrier escaped their vigilance.

It's possible that a theoretical rhinoceros reached South America before the Europeans.
But the first contact was in 1498, and 20 years later the Inca were suffering a smallpox epidemic - long before they even knew there were "strangers" on the continent.
You don't need any pirates; you don't need a rhinoceros.

Harte

[Byrd]

What about carriers or vectors in the bilge or cargo holds?

They killed off the ship crews before they hit the New World.

It was a 2 month voyage to the Americas, if the winds were right.  Crew members would frequently die from malnutrition and injuries (gangrene, for example.)   Ship captains frequently kept cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship%27s_cat) to kill rodents that ate grain.

Almost all of the disease spreading by ships was done in Europe and Asia, on short (a few days) trips.  

No ship captain was going to take anyone aboard who had obvious signs of disease.  Crew had to work hard during voyages, and every  man down meant added danger for the ship if a storm hit.  They didn't check for venereal diseases, which can look asymptomatic, but they would send ashore anyone who was sick or couldn't do the work.

You can check your speculations by talking to AI.

[SteamyAmerican]

They killed off the ship crews before they hit the New World.

It was a 2 month voyage to the Americas, if the winds were right.  Crew members would frequently die from malnutrition and injuries (gangrene, for example.)   Ship captains frequently kept cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship%27s_cat) to kill rodents that ate grain.

Almost all of the disease spreading by ships was done in Europe and Asia, on short (a few days) trips.  

No ship captain was going to take anyone aboard who had obvious signs of disease.  Crew had to work hard during voyages, and every  man down meant added danger for the ship if a storm hit.  They didn't check for venereal diseases, which can look asymptomatic, but they would send ashore anyone who was sick or couldn't do the work.

You can check your speculations by talking to AI.

Lol. “My speculations”. And “ask AI”. Damn this site has fallen off.

I was talking about rats, fleas, mosquitos etc.

But thanks for the assumptions.