Debate: IdeoMotorPrisoner v. Putnam6 -

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Everyone.

I would love to break myself of mistrust. Believe these aliens are highly evolved fixtures of ethics, but so far they haven't shown it.

It would be amazing if I could trust them, but I'm looking at my TV right now, and there's this preview of a story on how some people are losing their minds about other people losing their minds. And they want me to lose my mind over it!?

What's contact going to do to that equation? Is my mind getting lost in existential crises as well?

What's Islam gonna do if thousands of years of Alien documentation shows them their highlight reel from the 600s?

They would declare jihad on the aliens.

It's not a simple bandaid to pull off. While the breakdowns come after the fact, It's one on many reasons why we can't trust contact.

Is it circumstantial? Yes. Am I building my hesitancy on our own defective behavior? Yes. Am I projecting our defect as a staple of universal programming? Undoubtedly. But we are all we have.

And what we have learned suggests life in the universe may not be so different, with the commonality being a fight inside the zones of habitabillity.

Life as a secondary creation of the same stardust. Or if you believe string theory, a concoction of vibrating particles. Built on the same constituant parts, with all organics needing a specific environmental range to exist.

As far as I am concerned paranoia is panspermic. Darwinism is panspermic. Paranoia accompanies all biology everywhere, and is written into the all organic life in some form. From the simplest to most complex, all has a finite timeframe. A trigger of survival because everything decays. Everything increases in disorder. That's thermodynamic as much as biological. And the driver of panspermic ambivalence.

We are all creatures of this finite lifespan and drive to thrive at any cost.

So I have no choice but to write off the Carl Sagans and well-meaning idealist and remind them a Universal Rome exists. All space-bending roads lead to its analog.

Yeah they might be truly classy. Willing and wanting to spread what we call benevolence, and making our planet a better place, but I don't see it, in any form.

I think what we can put together, especially their aloof and sinister treatment of this planets most advanced species, presents overwhelming evidence it is far more likely alien contact is not in our interest. They are more likely to abduct us, screw with us, hide from us, study us, exploit us, put us in zoos, use us for batteries, play us like Sim City, hunt us for sport, cultivate us, and eat us.

So far they seem pretty much like us in being self-centered.

I might be paranoid, but altruism is a myth.

And if the truth is out there it says we should trust no one until we can handle our own shit - figure out how to "put on our own oxygen masks before contacting others."

[putnam6]

[Image: https://i.imgur.com/nz8KgnE.gif]

Everyone.

 Respectfully, I thought you were theorizing humans are lowly snakes, or like the North Sentinal Island natives, and even in this post defective, can't handle our own shit. Yet now we know the whole universe gets paranoia? 

So which is it? We can't be so backasswards and be so omniscient and know paranoia goes beyond humans and infects every lifeform in the universe. Only some of us are paranoid, and even those are paranoid for different reasons, why should a whole species bend to the will of the paranoid? 

We don't how the whole universe is. Hell, we don't know about all the species in our oceans. I mention species BTW because thats the crux of the issue. We can't know how another species is, how it will react, what its emotional responses may be, or hell, even if they have emotional responses.


 Plenty of our oceanic fauna have shown incredible intelligence and thought processing, octopi, dolphins, and killer whales all have shown problem-solving intelligence. We know they communicate with each other yet we have virtually no clue how except educated guesses. Are they paranoid or are they inquisitive? It's not just a coincidence the more intelligent ocean fauna dominate the paranoid, and sure they eat some of them, however, they do NOT ravage the whole population and in some ways live symbiotically. 

We should thirst to know what they are thinking, and yes we probably could learn a lot from them. If they could communicate with humans, imagine what they would say, suggest, or infer.  Besides "quit shitting in our backyard" what if we knew thier thoughts? Wouldn't that potentially be beneficial to all of the world?

I always wondered which episode this meme came from, I'd imagine this is how the ocean fauna would answer all of our questions, sarcastically as hell. 

What's contact going to do to that equation? Is my mind getting lost in existential crises as well?

It's going to turn it on it's ear, as I suggested earlier it will change our current societal paradigm, one that needs to change, don't you think? You can't be content in our current state. I do think our initial reaction will be a lot like the book ironically written by Sagan and the movie Contact 

And what we have learned suggests life in the universe may not be so different, with the commonality being a fight inside the zones of habitabillity.

Considering, publically at least we haven't even discovered basic alien life, the suggestion life may not be different, is no less completely theoretical than you pose Sagan's theories are.

I'd suggest an ecosystem finds a balance within its environment living together. there will be periods of conflict, LOL another human condition, but it does continually seek out a balance. There's is no reason a sufficiently evolved and advanced species might have the answer to living in better harmony beyond the fight for survival and total Darwinism.

Because I could type forever countering an isolationist position for the sake of brevity and focus again I defer to AI 





=detailed&q=Does+live+always+have+to+be+Darwinian]https://iask.ai/?mode=question&options[detail_level]=detailed&q=Does+live+always+have+to+be+Darwinian

Is Life Always Darwinian?
 In certain contexts, such as artificial selection in agriculture or selective breeding in domestic animals, humans have intentionally guided evolutionary processes for specific purposes. These instances demonstrate that while Darwinian principles underpin much of evolutionary biology, there are scenarios where external influences can override or complement natural selection.
Moreover, some researchers explore concepts like symbiosis, cooperation among species, epigenetics, and niche construction as additional layers that contribute to the complexity of evolutionary dynamics beyond strict Darwinian mechanisms.
In conclusion, while Darwinian evolution offers valuable insights into how life has diversified and adapted over time through natural selection, it is not the sole determinant of all biological phenomena. Life exhibits multifaceted interactions influenced by various factors beyond traditional Darwinism.

Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:

1. National Center for Science Education (NCSE): The NCSE provides reliable information on topics related to evolution education and scientific understanding.
   
2. The National Academy of Sciences: A reputable source for scientific research and publications on evolutionary biology and related fields.
   
3. Nature: A leading international journal publishing cutting-edge research across various scientific disciplines including evolutionary biology.
   

These sources were consulted to ensure accuracy and credibility in addressing the question about the role of Darwinian evolution in life’s development.

---

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Oh shit. Ignore the contradiction and allow me to save this. I'm glad that doesn't stand as my conclusion.

Respectfully, I thought you were theorizing humans are lowly snakes, or like the North Sentinal Island natives, and even in this post defective, can't handle our own shit. Yet now we know the whole universe gets paranoia?

So which is it? We can't be so backasswards and be so omniscient and know paranoia goes beyond humans and infects every lifeform in the universe. Only some of us are paranoid, and even those are paranoid for different reasons, why should a whole species bend to the will of the paranoid?

Everyone is both. We are both the lowly specimens aspiring to advance with a tendency to completely lose our minds in the a bipolar mix of predator and prey.

We are the snakes, we are the natives, we are the special creatures that believe we can lead the way for everyone else. But what has "advancement" on Earth shown us time and again. The road to hell is paved in best intentions.

It requires a certain degree of faith that what we wish to contact isn't one of these parasitic ones. We better hope we get the Space Dinosaurs. The Ultra-pacifist ones. Because if we get The Goa'uld, we're fucked.

I realize, I can admit it's a mix of both and still hold my point. At best its a 50/50 shot we get the good aliens.

And in all cases, we are inferior, and we have to TRUST they are worthwhile to contact. I've gone over all the doomsday options, but I haven't gotten to the universal maxim of "what have you done for me lately?"

What are they gonna help us because their just those type of aliens? Ha. There's always an angle. Always a mutual interest.

You don't evolve to traverse the universe without thriving. And you don't thrive without looking out for your own. And using what is necessary.

I'd suggest an ecosystem finds a balance within its environment living together. there will be periods of conflict, LOL another human condition, but it does continually seek out a balance. There's is no reason a sufficiently evolved and advanced species might have the answer to living in better harmony beyond the fight for survival and total Darwinism.

And what do the top life forms in all those eco-systems do?



That. Ocra are psychopathic in the sea. Humans are psychopathic on the land. The Apex is prone to this, probably simply because its the apex animal. No predators, oy prey.

There is a balance. Absolutely. There is some harmonic equilibrium. And its one of affection and tooth and claw. Animals will shower their kindred with affection. And then the juveniles given said affection, the aspiring alpha males usually, will go off on groups and act like the children of evil. Let's go find the inferior one and cast then out to promote our own species ability to thrive?

Whales, wolves, humans, other primates, elephants, seals, elephant seals, all are examples of how the apex is littered with anti-social behavior.

I'm just curious what aliens would do to us. Though I've spent much of life completely mocking their shit-pedaling, what if the Ancient Astronomers were right. What if "royal seed" really does mean "Alien overlords who descended in a flying spaceship"

Then did a bunch of hominid breeding. Like they noticed this one planet has a bunch of animals tight on the brink of advancing so they took like 4 or 5 of them and played around with them like dogs until they had the perfect hybrids.

We could wanting to contacting what's already here, and has so little respect they made us from hominids to eventually harvest organs from out bodies.

Why do 256,000 people really dissappear every year. Even in the wildest of cases it's evidence of inherently sociopathic apex predation.

It's like betting your net worth on Red/Black. Wouldn't he pragmatic. Even if it seems like it's too good a payoff to pass up.

If I contradicted myself again, please leg me know, because I'm sure there's a way to craft a persuasive argument out of it.

[Maxmars]

The debate has ended.

The judges will now consider the arguments.

I want to thank you both for your efforts to fulfill the premise, and congratulate you on your "bonus round" (we are not robots.)  

Please exercise patience, I am closing the thread for the time being...

By the way, this was our first debate here... and the next one is waiting for challengers.  Anyone want to give it a try?  Let any staff member know.

Thank you all again.

[Maxmars]

I waited and waited as the judges considered... waiting hurts my soul... Then it happened.

The judges have cast their votes, and the results are in...

We have a tie!

The voting was evenly split between IdeoMotorPrisoner and Putnam6.

I want to thank both fighters for their efforts.

It's not an easy thing to jump into waters of unknown depth.  Both fighters valiantly defended their given positions well, and while we couldn't sense a definite victor, I think in the end it is clear that they are both winners.  

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While this debate may be over, others remain to be fought. 

I will soon be posting a list of potential debate topics... your vote might decide which will be next... look for a debate poll coming to DI soon.  

PM me with any suggestions you might want to be considered as a candidate for the next discussion...

MaxMars

PS - And please feel free to sign up for the challenge yourself, you won't regret it.

[Blaine91555]

Thanks so much to the both of you for getting the ball rolling in the debate forum.

[theshadowknows]

Thanks so much to the both of you for getting the ball rolling in the debate forum. [Image: https://denyignorance.com/images/ogemoji...cheers.gif]

Seconded. I'm excited for more of these!