Debate: IdeoMotorPrisoner v. Putnam6 -

[Maxmars]

For this our inaugural debate, in deference to this being the first "plunge," I will assure that the waters are not too deep, and the topic will NOT be a matter of heated politics, ideological advocacy, or charged contemporary issue (those come later.) Although it may be that one of the challengers could and might make it seem so... (that's part of the fun!)

We will reach for something less fiery this time... something many might even consider 'light'... but rest assured... it will be challenging to both. 

May the challengers honor us with a good effort... and I wish them both good luck!

The assertion, and center of the debate will be.... 
 

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The Alien Presence.

(For countless centuries, human beings have been intermittently obsessed and or dismissive regarding the presence of intelligent entities "other than human" in their world.  From myth to legend,  from parapsychology to hardened scientific speculations, the explanations have veered between near certainties to suspect fabrications.)

Assertion:  Presuming they exist, we (humans) should organize formal public efforts to definitively "contact" these beings and commence a dialog with them openly.

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Our valiant Deny Ignorance Fighters Putnam6, and IdeomotorPrisoner will tackle this assertion directly... should we or shouldn't we?
 

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Putman6 will begin, promoting seeking contact.
IdeoMotorPrisoner will alternately follow, arguing against contact.

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Clear the field, gather the contestants, open the arena...

set the VCR to 'record,' and get me some popcorn... the time is now!



Your humble host, 
MaxMars

[putnam6]

Presuming they exist, we (humans) should organize formal public efforts to definitively "contact" these beings and commence a dialog with them openly.


 The reality is there should be both public and private efforts to contact non-human intelligence. 

 Why? 
 
Because the future, our future, humanity's future for better or worse is likely tied to understanding our place in the universe.

Who are we? Why are we here? Where did we come from?

Humanity’s evolution must continue or we likely die off like 95% of all the other species of life that ever existed on the planet. 
 
 The infinite positives outweigh the few potential negatives.  Looking at the acceptable risk factors, if we accept the probable notion, that one or more non-human intelligences already know humans exist, and they have known for quite a while. One would think if they wanted or needed to eradicate us,  it would be well within their capabilities. Since we are still here, that concern should be pushed well into the background if not eliminated entirely.

  Specifically, if we are to evolve to our next level of existence, the basic question “Are we alone?” needs to be answered publicly one way or the other. If for no other reason, so our academia isn’t wandering around unguided and overly concerned about divisive and meaningless earthly regional issues that, stunt our growth and understanding of the universal reality. The best and brightest among us need to be weighing in on this issue in the light, fully transparent, instead of being thrown into the paranormal realm where it’s devalued, ridiculed, and dismissed.
 
 If we continue to lie to ourselves or stick our heads in the sand humanity will never reach our maximum potential individually and collectively and will be trapped in the old archaic ways of centuries past. Turning Earth into a planet akin to North Sentinal Island alone, isolated, undeveloped trapped in the eroding bubble of its false reality. Hell FWIW Earth might already be there and the general public just doesn’t realize yet.

Secondly, if this NHBI (non-human biological intelligence) is already in contact with certain governments, departments, military, or corporate entities, a likely probability 

Shouldn’t we be more concerned about what the few PTBs are potentially discussing with the  NHBIs? 

 How do we know these discussions are in humanity's best interests, and not just enriching or empowering a few countries or a few corporate entities? 

Respectfully I'd rather have Neil deGrasse Tyson communicating with ET, than the CEO or research and development teams at Raytheon.

 Not only do we need attempts at communication publicly and privately, but we also need full transparent oversight in what has already been attempted or accomplished historically. 
 
Even if publicly and privately trying to establish contact fails, and we all find out we are alone or the NHBIs can not or do not want to communicate. The sooner we learn the real answer to this age-old question the sooner we can plot humanity’s course to the next age of enlightenment.

It's taking way too long for us to arrive there...

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Opening Post:

The Alien Presence.

(For countless centuries, human beings have been intermittently obsessed and or dismissive regarding the presence of intelligent entities "other than human" in their world.  From myth to legend,  from parapsychology to hardened scientific speculations, the explanations have veered between near certainties to suspect fabrications.)

Assertion:  Presuming they exist, we (humans) should organize formal public efforts to definitively "contact" these beings and commence a dialog with them openly.

If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans. We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet. - Stephen Hawking

I know it's Taboo to use a quote to start a position, but It's helpful to illustrate my argument.

I don't think Dr. Hawking gives the degree of separation enough disparity. Orders of magnitude. Not Spanish explorers vs. The Taino People, Not puritans vs. Heathens, but like humans vs mice.

Little humans scurrying about, exalting other human-mice, condensing in bulk, and consuming resources as they breed (or not) in behavior sink.

We are but things to study. Probably very similar to mice from a withdrawn perspective.

A species that can send something way further than 20,359,938,541 kilometers in 47 years is likely to approach us like "barely conscious pond scum".

Theorists like Carl Sagan or Arthur C. Clark have speculated surviving would make them benign. Or that intelligence favors empathy and adaptability. Much like the bias Sagan references, I feel a similar bias should be applied to the belief an alien species evolves on a vector of altruism and benevolence. What says they wouldn't be antisocial and parasitic? Right up to a sci-fi wraith feeding on human life-force.

For this reason I think it is FAR MORE presumptious and myopic to give the benefit of the doubt that interaction would be in our best interest. There's too many exploitable malevolent positions on our own planet that makes me wonder why anyone would think the above/below of it all doesn't apply universally.

[putnam6]

What's ridiculously myopic and paranoid to be afraid of discovery, after all, we are men(human), not mice. We do not burrow and hide from the cat, if our ancient ancestors did we would still be in caves howling at the moonlight and scared of thunder and lightning.

It's myopic because its based on arrogant and pompous humans who theorize any and all life forms will have our human emotions, wants, needs and desires. When it's infinitely more likely they will ignore us completely, or we are looked upon as wild untamed and uncouth in comparison to the vast majority of advanced lifeforms. Thus we are probably safe unless they look at us as "bacon" or need us as slaves which are both unlikely "human" imagined alien tropes.

REALITY is there is probably a broad spectrum of benevolent to malevolent NHI and every attitude in between. Even if this is the case, would it not be in our best interests to seek out and hopefully find the benevolent ones instead of just hiding in our caves waiting for the malevolent alien cat?

Lastly, I believe that if humanity is to go on, we all mostly want this conclusion. We will have to find a way off this planet sooner or later. We don't know if the next solar storm will wipe out our electrical grid, or if some other unforeseen event will prevent us from exploring the cosmos, this is why we need to try now. We don't know what the future will bring.  

Carl always had the best perspective out of the dozens of scholarly quotes this one resonates as much as any of them.

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

What's ridiculously myopic and paranoid to be afraid of discovery, after all, we are men(human), not mice. We do not burrow and hide from the cat, if our ancient ancestors did we would still be in caves howling at the moonlight and scared of thunder and lightning.

Aren't we still?

Paranoid is our genetic memory. In many ways we are not that far removed from howling at thunder still. It's within written history to when thunderstorms were still attributed to the gods. Not that far removed from another god to pull the sun across the sky.

While I'm not saying discovery is bad, or contact can't lead to benefit, I'm saying there may be wisdom in being LITERAL backwoods savages.



To them our intent is malevolent. They don't want to be documented by mechanical birds. They want the territorial threat countered.

But therein is a good example. Why do drones survey areas of the Amazon? Sometimes as precursor to eventually pave the rainforest in the tears of Joni Mitchell.

Typically, when the more advanced come across the less advanced, the latter exploit the former to some degree. Whether it being the removal of indigenous population or assimilation for selfish reasons. Like Manhattan for 23 dollars.

Carl always had the best perspective out of the dozens of scholarly quotes this one resonates as much as any of them.

Carl Sagan might have been an atheist but he couldn't have been more of a creampuff. I don't want to call him sappy, but... He was firmly wearing the rose colored glasses common from the 70s onward.

"The Next." The transhuman obsession. The future is civilized and crime free, because with advancement comes Buddha meditating under a tree apparently.

When did this happen? I must have missed it in all the warfare and exploitation.

To rip off a Stargate episode.

Advanced race offers technology, admission to their federation, an anti-aging vaccine, and galactic awareness.

Only problem was the vaccine was a sterilization drug meant to make over 90% infertile and convert Earth to farmland for the alliance.

Not to underscore natural human paranoia, buy how can we as a species be certain Klaus Schwab isn't an alien servant sterilizing people with MNRA vaccines and reducing Earth's population for alien farmland already?

It seems the crazier the conspiracy the more weight it has lately, and I don't think that's just paranoia.

Peoples morality is transitive. Germany in 1936 proved that. You can exalt complete desecration of character and have people believe it's moral.

Finally, I must insert a necessary component to my argument.

I think natural selection, survival of the most adaptable, IS the default form for life to evolve. All life may be from left-handed amino acids and mostly carbon-based?

It this regard, 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons might be a little too apt for biological life. They wouldn't have a conception of out numerology, but chances are they are equal in being a beast imprinted by hostile circumstances. And forced to change by obstacle.

Like pain is the universal norm.

If there's no adversity, then nothing needs to evolve. Which is why Alligators are the garbage disposals of mass extinction events and never need to move beyond eating the animals (alive or dead) that fall into the river.

Is it cowardly and dismissive of something truly in your best interest or something pragmatic?

[putnam6]

 

Paranoid is our genetic memory. In many ways we are not that far removed from howling at thunder still. It's within written history to when thunderstorms were still attributed to the gods. Not that far removed from another god to pull the sun across the sky.

While I'm not saying discovery is bad, or contact can't lead to benefit, I'm saying there may be wisdom in being LITERAL backwoods savages.

  That's the point or at least one of the pertinent points here, humanity may evolve too slowly, hell we may be regressing already. Even then we aren't the alligators, crocodiles, mice, or even the North Sentinal Island natives. As much as I'd like to rock a loincloth eat some coconuts, and live right on the beach, most humans desire more out of life and humanity's existence. 

Common HUMAN wisdom though knows to live life to its fullest on this earthbound rock you have to take chances, make mistakes, learn,  adapt, and grow. If we don't this little rock buzzing through space at 26,000 miles an hour on the edge of the Milky Way is likely to run us into a situation where Earthlings have to quickly adjust to a situation or face extinction. Then what? do we go silently into the night?

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-...-could-end

Wouldn't it be better to have options, and have another planet atleast some of us can immigrate to? To have options you have to prepare. 

We are now 21st-century partially civilized humans and have been on the planet for 100,000-plus years. 

How much longer do we need to cook? 

Typically, when the more advanced come across the less advanced, the latter exploit the former to some degree. Whether it being the removal of indigenous population or assimilation for selfish reasons. Like Manhattan for 23 dollars.

As rose-colored glasses Carl suggested, we weren't separate species for the 1st Manhattan Real Estate sale it was just slightly more ambitious and motivated humans with the same blood the same tissue, the same neurons, and electrons, ie still full of all our flaws, questionable emotional responses and genetic limitations physically and mentally. 

Hell I'm more concerned about humans I know what they are capable of individually and collectively, and damn Im surrounded by them right now.LOL

I mean I know it's unlikely but perhaps we could discover an NHI that can make artificial no cholesterol vegetable bacon that tastes like real bacon

"The Next." The transhuman obsession. The future is civilized and crime free, because with advancement comes Buddha meditating under a tree apparently.

When did this happen? I must have missed it in all the warfare and exploitation.

Hmmm, I gave up on that fantasy mirage after watching Bladerunner #1, and #2 pretty sure humans are close enough to animals that unless genetically modified there will be a smallish percentage thats always a few centuries behind in their Miss Manners etiquette classes as well as another smallish percentage that will want to play real-life GTA. As well small percentage of TPTB that will employ persons from the previous 2 groups.

I mean look how long humans have eaten red meat, smoked cigarettes, and consumed pounds of sugar. We all know it is poison, yet humanity has given us the ability to have all the red meat we can afford delivered to our door 24/7, we can inhale tobacco through vape pens and cartridges and sugar it's still in everything, even items where you are going why in the hell is sugar in there? We are passively more dangerous to humanity than aliens actively are FAWK

 Not to mention we might not want to eliminate our warring tendencies, our wars and warrior tendencies could be all thats keeping the alien armada parked on the dark side of the moon. What if the cosmos is full of nothing but alien warfare and exploitation, as the new human in the galactic neighborhood it would be better to know how to give than to receive.

Not to underscore natural human paranoia, buy how can we as a species be certain Klaus Schwab isn't an alien servant sterilizing people with MNRA vaccines and reducing Earth's population for alien farmland already?

Respectfully if this is the case, then the premise of the debate is moot, is it not? 





Peoples morality is transitive. Germany in 1936 proved that. You can exalt complete desecration of character and have people believe it's moral.

Sure, but it's late and you might need to connect the dots, not sure how this relates to the question at hand at all. I mean yes if there are alien Nazis we might have issues

Germany's population was approximately 65 million, there were many variables that had to fall into place to make Nazi Germany possible. The only factor that can be recreated is perhaps coming out of a Great Depression, possible mind you, but all the other factors were isolated in 1930s Germany. It's not likely not occur in 2020s/21st Century Earth with a population approaching 8 Billion. 90 years later Germany is a fairly staunch ally of Israel, wonder what the odds were on that ever happening. 

Finally, I must insert a necessary component to my argument.

I think natural selection, survival of the most adaptable, IS the default form for life to evolve. All life may be from left-handed amino acids and mostly carbon-based? 

While personally, I agree with your assertion, there's evidence even this may not be the case

https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-car...sis-common

 

Self-sustaining chemical reactions that could support biology radically different from life as we know it might exist on many different planets using a variety of elements beyond the carbon upon which Earth's life is based, a new study finds.
On Earth, life is based on organic compounds. These molecules are composed of carbon and often include other elements such as hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus and sulfur.
 However, scientists have long wondered if alien life might evolve based on significantly different chemistry. For example, researchers have long speculated that silicon might also serve as a backbone for biology.

 
It this regard, 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons might be a little too apt for biological life. They wouldn't have a conception of out numerology, but chances are they are equal in being a beast imprinted by hostile circumstances. And forced to change by obstacle.

Like pain is the universal norm.

Thank you pain... no pain no gain

If there's no adversity, then nothing needs to evolve. 

Perhaps but think of all that is born from adversity. Without that irritating grain of sand, there would be no pearls. Speaking of carbon, coal is crushed under tremendous geological pressure to form diamonds. Hell we all know individuals who had miserable upbringings and many not only survive but thrive in those conditions. Perhaps humans should look at all we've been through and we are still here as a tribute to our adaptability. Let's not forget if the aliens wanted to wipe humans out during one ice age we only had about 200 breeding pairs of humans left. We are damn lucky we aren't a couple of Neanderthals in caves drawing in dirt scratching our asses and are instead a couple of homo-sapiens in a comfortable home typing on computers and scratching our asses

Besides it's not the need to evolve, simple life forms don't care, it's the ability to think imagine, and question what if. Even though we have sent chimps into space, pretty sure none of them looked at the moon and thought about going there one day, millions if not billions of humans throughout our history probably have 

Is it cowardly and dismissive of something truly in your best interest or something pragmatic?

There's the rub, the fly in the ointment, the monkey in the wrench, we don't know what thought process is in our best interests with respect to the search for intelligent life, being valiant and brave or timid and dismissive. One leads to our current low orbit trajectory while the other may lead us to wonderous discoveries, like an unlimited power source 


and perhaps definitively answer the question "Are we alone?"

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

Wow. Good argument. I'm afraid I'm going to have to use much more thinking now.

*******

I'm certain you're familiar with The Kardishev Scale.

If you bite your first contact on the ankle, you might be a Type-0 Civilization-neck.

Joking aside, we are as Type 0 as it gets. Type-1 still far flung into the future.

We would be advised to "Stay in the f*cking car."

I think we are the snakes though.

Wouldn't it be better to have options, and have another planet atleast some of us can immigrate to? To have options you have to prepare.

We are now 21st-century partially civilized humans and have been on the planet for 100,000-plus years.

How much longer do we need to cook?

I'm sure they'll figure that out. Probably about 5 minutes a pound.

"Oh please, come to our planet. We have room to accommodate all of you in our prefabricated cities."

How do we know it's not a human farm? And you live blissfully and gluttonous until they transfer you to another city on the carousel. Specific diets for the juiciest cuts of human flank. It's like Logan's Run + Soylent Green. You get renewed into food.

Yes I know it's a sci-fi projection, but given how humans grow shrimp in pools in the desert, and give livestock blissful enough lives until we renew them on the "conveyer", which is sort like a carousel, it stands to reason we should be weary of universal food chains.

As rose-colored glasses Carl suggested, we weren't separate species for the 1st Manhattan Real Estate sale it was just slightly more ambitious and motivated humans with the same blood the same tissue, the same neurons, and electrons, ie still full of all our flaws, questionable emotional responses and genetic limitations physically and mentally.

Different mindset completely.

Think about a Colonial American vs an Iroquois. The "savages" had this natural standard. They had understanding of equallibrium and balance where the colonizers wanted to build London on the Hudson. Or Amsterdam as the case may be.

One might argue, the natives were more advanced, having leaped over the "man is God's special animal phase" strait into a world of sacred equilibrium.

Their weariness was well-founded, and their naivite was exploited. They were essentially conned for manifest destiny.

It's a wonder we didn't sell them into slavery. Or use them to build railroads.

Our own history is littered with exploitation on the belief of superiority.

I think the universe is that on steroids.

However, scientists have long wondered if alien life might evolve based on significantly different chemistry. For example, researchers have long speculated that silicon might also serve as a backbone for biology.

Also Boron, Nitrogen, Phosphorus...

I think there is something specific to animo-acids that makes all universal life carbon based. Forgive the left-handed sinister connotation, but I believe its specifically left-handed chirility that leads to life, as the stellar amino acids found, like tryptophan, histidine, and glycine are showing these "one carbon donors" are everywhere.

Given the composition of the universe, and how a miniscule number of elementary particles make up the whole, I speculate biological life is subjected to LIKE situations and LIKE habitabillity to form. And by extension like adversity.

And then form the same evolutionary way, which leads to changes in form, but not an overall function, or vector.

The only thing seeming unrestrained is the way the more complex lifeforms intake the nutrients they need for energy.

I know an energy sucking wraith is far-fetched, but they could feed off us (draw their energy) any number of ways.

Besides it's not the need to evolve, simple life forms don't care, it's the ability to think imagine, and question what if. Even though we have sent chimps into space, pretty sure none of them looked at the moon and thought about going there one day, millions if not billions of humans throughout our history probably have.

That could be the case with aliens. We are but apes looking at the moon. Maybe we don't even realize it was towed into place by Macrathean planet builders. Maybe it actually is a space station or sorts? Ignorance isn't necessarily bliss.

And in the most troubling circumstances a Zoo. An animal farm. Believing it's Orwellian system is anything but a distraction.

Not Von Daniken's ridiculous gold mining, Nibiru Atmosphere-lining race, but...



How do we know our gifted new home isn't a more local attraction for them?

One leads to our current low orbit trajectory while the other may lead us to wonderous discoveries, like an unlimited power source.

Sure... but could they trust us to use it without tearing a hole in subspace? Or would we screw up the zero-point calculations and undo the universe?

These are tropes, but we have always been great at living up to them.

[putnam6]

Think more?

How did you do your first couple of posts with half your brain tied behind your back? 

Regardless, your position is full of what might happen and the absolute worst-case scenarios.

I vaguely remember coming across the Kardashev Scale a while back, it brings up an interesting point about humans and our lifespan. We might not live long enough individually or collectively to have successful projects that span generations and thus we need some off-world or multi dimensional assistance.



While mine admittedly are full of rainbows and unicorns and the best-case scenarios, we both know the truth is much more likely to be somewhere in the middle.

Even if we were to contact and be able to communicate with an NHI 

Some aspects will be shockingly different and traumatic, while others will be positively life-altering for humanity. Traumatic or positive it's still the most likely course of action that keeps us from destroying ourselves internally, we need a paradigm change, don't you feel this happening?

I certainly do, hopefully, it will be life-changing for this generation and those that follow—potentially ending our wars, poverty, hunger, and disease allowing people to live differently and not tied to the 9-5 48-hour workweek.  There are many reasons we can't continue on our current path. 

  Whatever happens, it's the next level of the human experience. a step we must take or we end up just just a few hundred years more advanced than the North Sentinal Island population.

We live in a world with an increasingly divided and disgusted population with a younger generation pissed off at thier parents and an older generation who looks at thier children collectively and thinks they are mostly pathetic, while deep down knowing they certainly are partially to blame. 

This is the first generation that isn't likely to outperform thier parents. Something has to change, we should have legitimate concerns about how our grandchildren's and great-grandchildren's lives will be even absent of NHI help or intervention. Go read the adulting subreddit, for examples of 30 and under adults struggling with just the basics of modern human life. My generation has the space and moon race, which highlighted humanity's best and brightest in the shadow of the turbulent '60s, it gave us hope and a worthy diversion from the chaos

  The sad reality is that left isolated to their own choices and decisions, our world will continue down this dark path towards a probable armageddon or at best a world full of famine, decay and despair isn't that an infinitely more probable scenario than your earlier proposed Buddist utopia?  

Perhaps that is why Im optimistic about the possible NHI search and interaction and hopeful it gives this younger generation a real purpose and meaning they seemingly so desperately need.

If not I know a generation of "Boomers" who would love to leave the planet just to get some peace and quiet in our last couple of decades. I'd go even without a chance of returning, especially if it was feasible to live for 5-6 years would love to travel the solar system blasting.



or maybe not, They might bug out for Proxima Centary

But don't just listen to my decrepit azz ramblings here's what one of the many Artificial Intelligence sources "thinks"
note #3

=detailed&q=the+benefits+if+we+contact+non+human+intelligence]https://iask.ai/?mode=question&options[detail_level]=detailed&q=the+benefits+if+we+contact+non+human+intelligence
note #3 Global Cooperation

Benefits of Contacting Non-Human Intelligence
Contacting non-human intelligence, such as advanced artificial intelligence or extraterrestrial beings, can potentially offer a wide range of benefits to humanity. These benefits can span various aspects of our society, technology, and understanding of the universe. Below are some key advantages of engaging with non-human intelligence:

1. Technological Advancements: Non-human intelligence may possess knowledge and capabilities far beyond what is currently available to humans. By establishing contact with such entities, we could potentially gain access to advanced technologies that could revolutionize various industries, including healthcare, energy, transportation, and communication. This could lead to significant advancements in science and innovation.
   
2. Expanded Knowledge: Interacting with non-human intelligence could provide us with insights and perspectives that are entirely different from our own. This exchange of knowledge could enhance our understanding of the universe, consciousness, and existence itself. It may challenge our existing beliefs and paradigms, leading to new discoveries and breakthroughs in fields such as physics, biology, psychology, and philosophy.
   
3. Global Cooperation: Contact with non-human intelligence has the potential to unite humanity in a common goal or mission. The realization that we are not alone in the universe could foster a sense of global cooperation and collaboration among nations and cultures. This shared purpose could transcend geopolitical differences and promote peace, mutual understanding, and collective progress.
   
4. Cultural Enrichment: Learning from non-human intelligence could enrich our cultural heritage by introducing us to new forms of art, music, literature, and traditions that are alien to our own experiences. This cultural exchange could broaden our perspectives on creativity, expression, and identity, fostering a more inclusive and diverse global society.
   
5. Ethical Considerations: Engaging with non-human intelligence may also prompt us to reevaluate our ethical frameworks and moral values. The encounter with beings that operate on different principles could challenge us to reflect on issues such as empathy, compassion, justice, and responsibility towards other forms of life in the universe.
   
6. Evolutionary Progress: Contact with non-human intelligence has the potential to catalyze the next stage of human evolution by pushing us towards higher levels of consciousness, adaptability, and interconnectedness. This evolutionary leap could redefine what it means to be human and open up new possibilities for growth and development as a species.
   

In conclusion, contacting non-human intelligence holds immense promise for humanity in terms of technological advancement, expanded knowledge, global cooperation, cultural enrichment, ethical considerations, and evolutionary progress. While there are risks and uncertainties associated with such interactions, the potential benefits far outweigh the challenges.

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

How did you do your first couple of posts with half your brain tied behind your back?

Honestly, it became harder and more committed to worst case scenarios, which required, what we'll call "ratcheting" to make work. A compliment to the argument.

I can't concede to somewhere in the middle though. I am firmly against contact.

And now we will get into the idea we have already been clandestinely contacted. Is it the Spielberg "event sociological?" Are people building models of a butte in their living room? Are strange cow organs being swapped up? Are the least threatening people being pulled up into, "A spaceship that looked like a cigar."

Why should we want contact that which obviously doesn't respect us?

"Hey, Navy, waste a bunch of time chasing our ufo/uso drone orbs. You can't really stop us!"

Meanwhile other orbs make crop circles, while yet more mutilate cattle and liquefy animals.

Where's the respect? Apparently they can access our entire defense network and disable our nuclear defenses before the term "data breach" was even in the popular lexicon.

Every account is like a Dark Presence.



Where's all the positive encounters.

Never, "They abducted me and cured my cancer," it's usually "they abducted me, and I then starting experiencing nightmares and suffering psychological problems. And then got strange growths"

I feel like it could be a Bill Hicks bit. "A positive abduction story"

Today a young woman on a dark country road was abducted and shown that all matter is still energy condensed to a slow vibration, but the universe is a superorganism in which there is no such thing as destiny, and we spend an inordinate amount of time killing ourselves over the imagination of the universe. Here's Anastasia Chavez-Gupta with the weather.

But where is that? I am leaning towards doom and gloom because that's what every account gives me.

I mean, how the hell did rectal trauma work it's way into this? Where does that get scientific? They haven't developed non-invasive scanners, but can traverse light-years?

Clearly they are withholding something or have a disturbing ass fetish.

Sorry to use primarily humorous examples of aliens being fucked up, but so far all accounts are of aliens being sadists. Or like a Loki.

If we are being kept in the dark, there is something that let's them torture drunk hillbillies, and then later cost farmers their stock by returning their cows stripped of all their value.

Across the board, the existing reported interaction does not instill confidence, and it would be easier to hold a benefit of doubt position if they gave me anything to give them benefit of doubt.

[putnam6]

No, I was legitimately trying to compliment you and your thought process, you deftly block and counter. The musings of Bill HIcks are difficult to argue against. 

You have more topical references and you have tapped into the emotions of a lot of humanity. The dominant one...REALITY is



Let's not quibble about who is giving who free proctologist exams.  You are delving into the individual's experience and using these alleged actions to decide how 7.8 billion people should "feel" about NHI or alien contact. The question is about humanity as a whole, for every supposed awful or frightening encounter many other ones show a benevolent side. It's all about perspective... like these sheep...



Individually they are scared, traumatized wondering what's happening. Oh no, they are drowning Dad...get me out of here

When the REALITY is the sheepherder is just protecting the sheep from parasites and is immensely concerned for the sheep's well-being and the process is beneficial for the whole herd

and yes I realize "sheep dipping" has a lot of definitions related to the conspiracy world