Carl Sagan Believed in UFOs

[quintessentone]

Very careful wording at the beginning there and his use of emotive labels like 'flying saucer cultists' does sound a bit scripted - if Sagan was being paid all that money by the USAF then he must have been aware of all the credible reports from PBBSR13 (and possibly even specific documents).

Sagan looks ill in that video and the creepy chap sat next to him is Thornton Page (possible handler?) who was a long term intelligence community operative and part of the CIA's plot to debunk the UFO subject known as the Robertson Panel.



[Video: https://www.youtube.com/6VLJogdP2Ys]






The video you posted is part of 'UFOs-Friend,Foe or Fantasy?' which is a known government shill disinformation piece - Page later wrote to Fred Durant even boasting about it lol.

Here's the late Terry Hanson explaining how Professor Michael Swords exposed it all.



[Video: https://youtu.be/rMax8XqeL-c]

Sagan's science still prevails throughout it all. He believed they cannot reach us because of our understanding of our physics. That does not mean our physics is right.

[Karl12]

Sagan's science still prevails throughout it all.

Err not really - he's using an assumed explanation for a phenomenon as an excuse not to address it.

He's also misrepresenting (or lying about) aspects of evidence whilst conveniently ignoring large scale scientific studies.

Sounds a bit 'dogmatic' to me and very far from objective - he's also got a scoffing, derisive tone and is being rather smug.

Dr Hynek states below Sagan was completely ignorant about many UFO reports so maybe he was lazy as well.

Sagan's collaboration with spooks (and shills like Menzel) is also brought up so maybe he really was on the payroll.

[Karl12]

Sagan was never a field UFO investigator, such as Hynek. Like the late Philip J. Klass, however, if he bothered, Sagan could dismiss the best of cases without ever leaving his chair or podium.

Yes pretty sad state of affairs and that kind of mindset (and behaviour) is probably the exact opposite of a genuine, sincere, open minded sceptic.

Did you ever catch this short film about US Gov UFO propaganda?

Some pretty fascinating nuggets of information and that CIA disinformation film featuring Sagan also gets brought up.






Cheers.

[quintessentone]

Err not really - he's using an assumed explanation for a phenomenon as an excuse not to address it.

Not to the point I was specifically referring, that being, aliens/UFOs being able to visit our planet via travelling great distances and/or alien civilizations not blowing themselves up before having that ability (if there ever can be the ability). 

He's also misrepresenting (or lying about) aspects of evidence whilst conveniently ignoring large scale scientific studies.

There were no large scale scientific studies specifically relating to UFOs during his time, even Project Blue Book dismissed most cases as being some other phenomenon. Think about that time and the dismissal of all things UFO/alien.

Sounds a bit 'dogmatic' to me and very far from objective - he's also got a scoffing, derisive tone and is being rather smug.

Aren't all scientists with some fame smug and will take on a defensive tone in defending their hypotheses. I guess you've never seen scientists go at it with opposing views in a debate; it can get worse than just derisive and scoffing.

Dr Hynek states below Sagan was completely ignorant about many UFO reports so maybe he was lazy as well.

Sagan was a skeptic, and as such always said 'show me the proof" and I say the same thing as well, even though I am a contactee. Sagan absolutely believed that there is other life out there, but, again...'UFO skeptic' not 'other life exists in the universe skeptic'. So by Sagan reading a few UFO/abduction reports he most likely would have had already cemented his theories on the many reasons why single witness questionable mental health and/or mass hallucinations may be the simpler explanations to UFO reports. Not lazy, just using all his methods and means of debunking pseudoscience.

UFO Evidence: The Skepticism of Carl Sagan - The Contact Project

Sagan's collaboration with spooks (and shills like Menzel) is also brought up so maybe he really was on the payroll.

Again, my comments are on topic regarding Sagan's belief in UFOs visiting Earth, which he gave many good theories as to why they most likely would not be able to visit Earth. Near Sagan's end of life it was reported by his daughter that his mental health suffered, so keep that in mind.

[Video: https://youtu.be/R3FjpaKQ2uY]

Sagan is described further in the link below.

CARLSAGANpres



UFO Evidence: The Skepticism of Carl Sagan - The Contact Project

[Karl12]

Yes maybe he was just unconsciously projecting with this quote.. after bamboozling everyone about the UFO subject.

• "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.

Carl Sagan.

'Finding out the truth' is a bit laughable as he was actively and demonstrably misinforming people.

Anyway, there's some statements here from genuine scientists who were not part of CIA disinformation programmes.

[quintessentone]

Yes maybe he was just unconsciously projecting with this quote.. after bamboozling everyone about the UFO subject.




'Finding out the truth' is a bit laughable as he was actively and demonstrably misinforming people.

Anyway, there's some statements here from genuine scientists who were not part of CIA disinformation programmes.

Can you post the context of Sagan's quote you posted? It's vague and can mean anything.

[Karl12]

It's from 'Demon Haunted World' (chapter 13) which is a great book.

PDF File

Am a big fan of Sagan in other fields but when it comes to the UFO subject he was a pseudo-sceptic (like Klass).

Here's a good definition:

[quintessentone]

This is what he actually said:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.

 “Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

"So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new ones arise." — Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan: ‘Once You Give a Charlatan Power Over You, You Almost Never Get It Back’ – Truth or Fiction?

[Karl12]

Yes well done on reproducing the quote.

As for the 'charlatan' part here's what Sagan was expecting everyone to swallow about unidentified flying objects:

• "The reliable cases are uninteresting and the interesting cases are unreliable. Unfortunately there are no cases that are both reliable and interesting."

Carl Sagan.

Compared to officially sanctioned studies this is simply not true and directly contradicts the empirical data.

Don't know if you've examined any content on this thread but even if we take the findings from the Battelle Memorial Institute then it's pretty apparent 'the better the quality of the sighting, the more likely it was to be an unknown'.

The actual unknown rates across many official studies are around 20% (and even the Condon whitewashers could only get it down to 30%) - do you not think a phenomenon with such a high unexplained rate should warrant further scientific study?

Sagan obviously didn't and ran around calling people 'flying saucer cultists' which, if you study the internal government communications of the time, the same label must also be applied to military intelligence top brass as they took the UFO subject incredibly seriously.

Would say Sagan also fits the 'charlatan' bill due to his disingenuous way of ignoring UFO evidence aspects like radar confirmation, electromagnetic interference effects, physiological effects, ground trace evidence etc. and flippantly dismissing all UFO incidents as 'just stories'.

In short he was full of it and either a dogmatic pseudosceptic or a government shill.

[quintessentone]

Yes well done on reproducing the quote.

As for the 'charlatan' part here's what Sagan was expecting everyone to swallow about unidentified flying objects:




Compared to officially sanctioned studies this is simply not true and directly contradicts the empirical data.

Don't know if you've examined any content on this thread but even if we take the findings from the Battelle Memorial Institute then it's pretty apparent 'the better the quality of the sighting, the more likely it was to be an unknown'.

The actual unknown rates across many official studies are around 20% (and even the Condon whitewashers could only get it down to 30%) - do you not think a phenomenon with such a high unexplained rate should warrant further scientific study?

Sagan obviously didn't and ran around calling people 'flying saucer cultists' which, if you study the internal government communications of the time, the same label must also be applied to military intelligence top brass as they took the UFO subject incredibly seriously.

Would say Sagan also fits the 'charlatan' bill due to his disingenuous way of ignoring UFO evidence aspects like radar confirmation, electromagnetic interference effects, physiological effects, ground trace evidence etc. and flippantly dismissing all UFO incidents as 'just stories'.

In short he was full of it and either a dogmatic pseudosceptic or a government shill.

Did you read Sagan's baloney methodology I posted?

He is both scientist and skeptic rolled into one; Occam's Razor. So, using that methodology any and all UFO incidents, for Sagan, have a very high bar to reach.

Well, you obviously have it out for him, so I will leave you to it.