California wildfires

[quintessentone]

California prisoner firefighters program put into force. Ethics arguments abound now.

The state is one of at least a dozen that operate these fire camps and deploy incarcerated people to fight fires. Last year, California voters rejected Proposition 6, a ballot initiative to ban involuntary labor in prisons and jails, which includes bringing incarcerated people in to help fight wildfires when there are not enough professionals to help. The proposition failed despite having the support of Democratic leaders, advocacy groups and labor unions. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/la-w...rcna187436

If this was done 'involuntary' as some are arguing then it does become an ethical argument. Was it 'involuntary'?

It seems to me they wanted to be a part of this program and now will get valuable experience for a good job when they get out.

[Mantiss2021]

The prisoner fire crews in California are all voluntary.

The California Conservation (fire) Camp program has been training, and using, incarcerated personnel to fire wildland and forest fires since at the 1940's. Prisoners do earn wages for their service, although advocates argue that, given the difficulty, and very real danger, posed by such service, the pay is little better than "slave wages".


On a different track: I attended the Art Center College in Pasadea, California back in the late 1970's. With something of an admittedly morbid curiosity, I have been trying to track the advancement of the Eaton Fire's eastern edge as it slowly eats its way toward my old school. So far, luckily, it seems that the 210 freeway has served as an effective firebreak, protecting the campus from harm.

However, although I do remember the address, I am pretty certain that the small apartment I rented in Pasadena while attending the Center, has been obliterated to ash and rumble.

It is a strange feeling.

[xuenchen]

Assuming it's always been voluntary, maybe they need a "voluntary" prisoner program to keep the underbrush clean. 
 

California prisoner firefighters program put into force. Ethics arguments abound now.

If this was done 'involuntary' as some are arguing then it does become an ethical argument. Was it 'involuntary'?

It seems to me they wanted to be a part of this program and now will get valuable experience for a good job when they get out.

[quintessentone]

Assuming it's always been voluntary, maybe they need a "voluntary" prisoner program to keep the underbrush clean. 

Some ethical arguments claim this program exploits inmates because it's not really a fair choice.

Hey, if they want to be in that program and clean up brush, why not?

Can they say, "no thanks, I don't feel like it today"?

I think I read there are 1,000 inmates helping with firefighting or rather brush fire maintenance for a total of around 5,300 firefighters now.

[Mantiss2021]

Assuming it's always been voluntary, maybe they need a "voluntary" prisoner program to keep the underbrush clean. 
 

Firstly, it's not "underbrush" that is burning in these fires.

Underbrush occurs in forests, the areas in Socal that are burning are not forests; they are mountainous scrub lands. Too many people fail to understand the difference. The infamous Camp Fire that burned several years ago was a "forest" fire.

Secondly, these fires are occurring in steep, narrow canyons where "clearing" is not practical: the vegetation (largely highly flammable manzanita) grows fast and too thick to walk through. The canyon walls are very steep as well.

Think in terms of trying to clear the face of hundreds of miles of mountainside while hanging from a rope.


P.S.:

And if, by some miracle you were able to clear all that mountain side, you would then have to contend with massive mud and rock slides as soon as the rainy season hit.

Although, to be honest, given the likelihood of climate changes further desertification of the region, "rainy season" is probably a disappearing memory.

[Lynyrd Skynyrd]

Firstly, it's not "underbrush" that is burning in these fires.

Underbrush occurs in forests, the areas in Socal that are burning are not forests; they are mountainous scrub lands. Too many people fail to understand the difference. The infamous Camp Fire that burned several years ago was a "forest" fire.

Secondly, these fires are occurring in steep, narrow canyons where "clearing" is not practical: the vegetation (largely highly flammable manzanita) grows fast and too thick to walk through. The canyon walls are very steep as well.

Think in terms of trying to clear the face of hundreds of miles of mountainside while hanging from a rope.


P.S.:

And if, by some miracle you were able to clear all that mountain side, you would then have to contend with massive mud and rock slides as soon as the rainy season hit.

Although, to be honest, given the likelihood of climate changes further desertification of the region, "rainy season" is probably a disappearing memory.

Nonsense. The California rainy season is not going away, and there are many clever ways to clear brush on hillsides. It just wasn't being done, just like the reservoirs were not being filled.

[quintessentone]

Although, to be honest, given the likelihood of climate changes further desertification of the region, "rainy season" is probably a disappearing memory.

So if the future is desertification on a large scale and probably no threats from seasons with rain, but more drought, why don't they help it along with planned burns and remedial measures to mitigate mud and rock slides?

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/ad6...4058a97c06

[Lynyrd Skynyrd]

"This is the head urban forest management in Los Angeles. This was a meeting 3 months before the fires. Listen to what her goals are. Complete and total incompetence all the way around. Not one word about actual forest management, like clearing the brush."

https://twitter.com/DefiyantlyFree/statu...nj1ew&s=19

[putnam6]

It seems there are quite a few who think there were issues in the decisions the LA politicians were making...


https://x.com/shellenberger/status/1879192855065088134

[quintessentone]

It seems there are quite a few who think there were issues in the decisions the LA politicians were making...

What do the majority of firefighters say, not just a few perhaps disgruntled employees?

I will listen to the President's expertise and good advice not to others' with agendae.

Focus is putting out the damn fire: (Brian Rice, President Cali Firefighters) 2 days ago