A really big question

[chr0naut]

Not adaptation, just alteration. Adaptation is inferred. But yes, you are quite right.

And now could we please not drag the discussion down to yet another tedious debate over fundamentas? I want to talk about the big question the OP is asking. Do you have any views on that?

Oh, right, the scale bit...

I think the Planck values indicate there are dimensional limits. But not only those values, but there appear to be swathes of apparent constants. These things argue for finiteness of all reality.

Additionally, open ended recursive scaling leads to infinities, which might be OK, but where does all that energy (and by equivalence, matter too), keep coming from to populate an infinitely expanding multiverse?

Equations also require balance to make any sense - open ended terms make the math trick of equation, meaningless and indeterminate. And for example, in calculus, we have to use the approach to limits to get answers from conceptual infinities in scale.

[Astyanax]

One thing I refuse to do anywhere is try to tell people what to believe. No way is that gonna happen. I will try to rebuke any remark that suggests a fallacy in my belief.

I reply somewhat reluctantly (though at length) because although the matter is important to your personal beliefs, it means very little to an agnostic like me. But you have ventured to correct me, Randy, when I am not wrong, so I must answer and correct you in turn.
 

The Sanhedrin, Pharisees and Sadducees he referred to as "the Synagogue of Satan".

In the Bible, the words ‘synagogue of Satan’ appear only in the Book of Revelation; in Chapters 2 and 3 to be precise. They are not the supposed words of the flesh-and-blood Jesus of the Gospels but of the risen Christ appearing to someone called John of Patmos* in a vision. You would find it very hard to persuade any non-Christian that they are the actual words of Jesus.

More pertinently perhaps, they do not describe Pharisees or Sadducees. They are addressed to ‘the angel of the church at Smyrna’ and its colleague ‘the angel of the church at Philadelphia’. These angels are assured that:
 

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Smyrna is in Turkey, which in those times was populated mainly by Greeks. Philadelphia is now Amman in Jordan; it was a border town of the Roman Empire in the first century AD, populated by Hellenized Arabs known as Nabataeans. The ‘risen Christ’ is referring to corrupt members of those churches’ congregations: people who, as the text makes quite plain, claim to be Jewish but are not. John is talking about Greeks, not Jews. He was probably a Jew himself, but his Revelation was written in Greek; who else could he possibly have been talking to?

Let’s not drift off the point. We were discussing whether Jesus hated religion. I say there is no evidence for this, though obviously he didn’t like priests. Then again, no intelligent and respectable person likes priests (of any religion) as a class, because their very profession is falsehood, whether you are a member of their faith or not. But hating priests is not to say one hates religion, and Jesus certainly did not.
 

I think what you refer to as rituals were just commandments to the people in that time that they commemorate what he did for them on certain days in certain times.

My dear fellow, what do you think pagan rituals are? I have attended several Hindu religious ceremonies as an observer and once or twice, out of politeness, as a participant. I can assure you that every ritual is derived from some significant event in the mythology of Hinduism. You are making a distinction without a difference. 
 

I would say burning your first born in the belly of a metal calf to some pagan God? That's a ritual with chanting and dancing and human sacrifice in a fearful atmosphere.

Look up the word ‘ritual’. I think you may have been taught a false definition of it as part of your religious education. The scent of sectarian fear and prejudice (holy terror) hangs thick about these sentences of yours: methinks I smell witches burning.

Which prompts me to remind you, my friend, that Christians have sacrificed countless numbers, children as well as adults, to their God over the course of two thousand years. The priests of Moloch were amateurs compared to some of the devotees of Christ. 
 

Anyway lets steer away from theology if we can Asty without being rude of course. You can have the last word if you like.

This isn’t theology! It’s just textual criticism, and before that we were talking metaphysics. I have a very low opinion of theology, I’m afraid. As A.E. Housman said, beer does more than Milton can to justify God’s ways to man. As for rudeness, I am not in the least offended by anything you’ve said, and I’ve tried as hard as possible, without being dishonest, to avoid giving offence in turn. You be the judge of how well I have succeeded.

Let this be the last word if you so desire, or reply if you think it necessary. Up to you, Randy.
_______________________

* There are no grounds whatsoever for believing that the author of this text was St John the Evangelist (‘the disciple whom Jesus loved’). That is merely a Church tradition. In fact the Revelation has been dated by Biblical scholars to around 95AD, so if it really was written by the Evangelist, he must have been at least 110 years old at the time!

[Astyanax]

Oh, right, the scale bit...

I think the Planck values indicate there are dimensional limits. 

Okay, but we’re talking about the other end of the scale. Is there a limiting value for the size of physical objects? Obviously there are none that apply to the metaphysical objects hovering ominously over this thread...

[chr0naut]

Okay, but we’re talking about the other end of the scale. Is there a limiting value for the size of physical objects? Obviously there are none that apply to the metaphysical objects hovering ominously over this thread...

Well, sufficient mass will gravitate together (eventually) and enough mass will collapse to a singularity.

Were it not for expansion, collapse would be the fate of everything.

As, however, expansion appears to be the modus, all matter will spread out further and further until it is no longer possible for any one part to communicate with another and so the universe dies lonely, in the dark.

Or perhaps, a sufficiently advanced intelligences would cooperate to differentially collapse parts of the universe, perhaps even calving new universes sufficient for the start of new 'goldilocks zones' for life, that may also yet allow for emergent intelligence and the continuum can proceed in generating novel forms.

[andy06shake]

Is there a limiting value for the size of physical objects?

If we stay strictly physical, there's no known law of physics that says objects must stop growing at a certain size.

But the hard boundary is going to be the observable universe.

I mean something larger can exist in principle.

But we can't interact with or verify it from here.

And if we cannot observe and measure something...

It kind of stops being physics and starts to become philosophy.

[Randyvine]

Let’s not drift off the point. We were discussing whether Jesus hated religion. I say there is no evidence for this, though obviously he didn’t like priests. Then again, no intelligent and respectable person likes priests (of any religion) as a class, because their very profession is falsehood, whether you are a member of their faith or not. But hating priests is not to say one hates religion, and Jesus certainly did not.
 

My dear fellow, what do you think pagan rituals are? I have attended several Hindu religious ceremonies as an observer and once or twice, out of politeness, as a participant. I can assure you that every ritual is derived from some significant event in the mythology of Hinduism. You are making a distinction without a difference. 
 

Look up the word ‘ritual’. I think you may have been taught a false definition of it as part of your religious education. The scent of sectarian fear and prejudice (holy terror) hangs thick about these sentences of yours: methinks I smell witches burning.

Which prompts me to remind you, my friend, that Christians have sacrificed countless numbers, children as well as adults, to their God over the course of two thousand years. The priests of Moloch were amateurs compared to some of the devotees of Christ. 
 

This isn’t theology! It’s just textual criticism, and before that we were talking metaphysics. I have a very low opinion of theology, I’m afraid. As A.E. Housman said, beer does more than Milton can to justify God’s ways to man. As for rudeness, I am not in the least offended by anything you’ve said, and I’ve tried as hard as possible, without being dishonest, to avoid giving offence in turn. You be the judge of how well I have succeeded.

Let this be the last word if you so desire, or reply if you think it necessary. Up to you, Randy.
_______________________

* There are no grounds whatsoever for believing that the author of this text was St John the Evangelist (‘the disciple whom Jesus loved’). That is merely a Church tradition. In fact the Revelation has been dated by Biblical scholars to around 95AD, so if it really was written by the Evangelist, he must have been at least 110 years old at the time!

Alright it might be rude not to retort so suffice it to say there is no evidence to suggest
that Christ came here to start a religion. And the way he was towards the religions of
the time. It could be interpreted that he hated religion. He asked only that we believe.
So I would argue belief does not require one to be religious. I know I'm not. And yes
men have used Christianity as well as any other venue to commit their vile acts on
humanity. I don't view the Catholic Church as anything Holy and certainly not Christ
like.

That aside I would be a certain fool to pit what I think understand and/or believe in
direct contrast to such a scope of knowledge such as yours. Just to put it out there
I'm am very conscious of that fact. So really I can only explain why I think the way I do
to save my ass from looking foolish. But I wonder if you've heard how the Isreali
gov. doesn't allow DNA testing in Isreal? The reasons why being said is because
many claiming to be Jews even today are of a bloodline going back to canaanites.
Not Hebrew and therefore not Jewish at all. That is being taught in many Churches
today. Netanyahu is not Jewish according to the talk.

You're a good person to talk to Astyanax. I'm honored

Forgot to proof read




Probably Anti semitism at work

[MONAD Ops]

I can't imagine the Creator of anything being a capture of his creation. So what
or who ever created this universe ( and the evidence does show it is a creation not
just some random anomaly) is likely as big or bigger than the universe. That would
account for his omnipresence. it's likely impossible that he isn't everywhere all at once.
But I don't know because God doen't talk to me (well maybe in some ways). So I just
think as I digress.:)

If you consider this region of Existence (outside of the perfect PLEROMA/HEAVEN) was made by the being described as the Demiurge, known for fashioning and maintaining the physical universe, the MATTERial universe god, then yes 1 can imagine an entity that does have the capability to capture and cycle / recycle Eternal souls and Hylics souls at its will...

[MONAD Ops]

Let’s remind ourselves of those benefits.

• Religion comforts us and gives us hope. It subdues the fear of death and of what comes after. It reduces the fear of living, too; we can beg the gods for protection against ill luck, failure and the malice of others.
  
• It assures us that our beloved dead are not lost to us forever; we shall be reunited with the departed in the future.
  
• We can also pray for favours and things we want, such as health or love or money or triumph over our enemies. This conviction of God’s support is sometimes all we need to restore our own confidence in ourselves.
  
• Religion is social cement in families, tribes, nations and even pan-national groupings like ‘Christendom’ or the Dar-ul-Islam. Sharing the same faith makes us more willing to help one another, trust one another, fight on one another’s behalf.
  
• Religion protects us by sanctioning violence or involuntary restraint upon those who threaten the community. Thus it helps hold large societies together, and gives adults an incentive to be socially cooperative and productive. It also unites us in war against our enemies.
  
• It helps children grow up to be sociable, law-abiding adults.
  

Every one of these benefits famously has its drawbacks. In contemporary Western society, ordinary folk take the benefits for granted; often we don’t even notice them. We focus on the drawbacks. We use rude words to describe them: brainwashing, conformity, hypocrisy, oppression, exploitation, extortion, warmongering and so on.

However, the benefits of organised religion so decisively outweigh the drawbacks that there is scarcely a community on Earth that does not have religion at the heart of it. And no, religion isn’t imposed upon the people by elites; elites may exploit it for their own selfish purposes, but having religious ideas and making up religious beliefs is something all humans do; even the mentally ill, who cannot participate in normal society, make up beliefs and rituals of their own to comfort themselves. Religion seems to be nothing less than a human instinct. Why?

Perhaps it won’t always be like this – some very advanced nations in Europe and the Far East seem to be moving beyond the need for mass religion – but most of the world, and certainly America, have a long way to go, I think, before they can abandon religion without undergoing a civilizational decline and fall. Organised religion exists because it sustains our world; perhaps surprisingly, this continues to be true whether or not the gods exist.

Logical perceptions 

[andy06shake]

If you consider this region of Existence (outside of the perfect PLEROMA/HEAVEN) was made by the being described as the Demiurge, known for fashioning and maintaining the physical universe, the MATTERial universe god, then yes 1 can imagine an entity that does have the capability to capture and cycle / recycle Eternal souls and Hylics souls at its will...

Sounds like a rather gnostic interpretation with hints of Sophia's fall if im not mistaken...

[BeyondKnowledge]

Religion at best, gives some instructions for those that do not see the obvious. The universe and all lfe in it as a wonderful thing to be appreciated. And to help one another in times of need. 

Religion at worse, kills very many people that don't believe as they do. No matter if it is just an argument about which book is the true instructions. They don't even consider all those books were written by people. 

Belief is belief. Religion is anything from training wheels to genocide.