(04-27-2024, 02:13 AM)guyfriday Wrote: Here's a fun angle in case anyone still believes that these protests are totally spontaneous.
‘Are You Being Paid to Protest’? At Columbia, Students Refused to Answer My Questions – Soldier of Fortune MagazinIe (sofmag.com)

(04-27-2024, 01:12 PM)Blaine91555 Wrote: Yeah, its the 60s and early 70s all over again. Right down to the BLM rioting and looting much like the 60s. I was a kid but I remember it.

It's not just that, but also the fears of WW3. I remember the brochures my father had on the coffee table that advertised bomb shelter plans. The siren tests and the drills. I half expect things like that to start up as what appears to the genuine birth of WW3 progresses. Seems like history truly does repeat and fear is the trigger.

(04-29-2024, 12:37 PM)Byrd Wrote: Well... I'm not in the Israeli government nor do I have access to what their military capacity is.  However, when they were outraged and mourning, the world mourned with them.  A return strike (as I've said before) on Hamas would have gained them support -- up to a point.

There were 695 people killed outright in the October 7 raid. (French source here: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths)

Israeli response resulted in (count is ongoing) has been to kill 32,000 people (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forces-kill-nine-palestinians-west-bank-24-hours-wafa-news-agency-says-2024-03-21/ and confirmed by many sources.)

That's FIFTY TIMES the death toll from October 7.

That's not an eye-for-an-eye but rather an-entire-family-for-one-eye (not to mention the complete destruction of roads, cities, towns, infrastructure, animals, etc.)


And that's why the world is outraged.  

Possibly because Israel hasn't stopped?

Look... I can't answer that.  Nobody but the people who are holding the hostages (and their superiors) can actually answer that.   All we know is that they haven't.

I think something got lost there in your typing?  

But... let's stop and look at it from a "boots on the ground" perspective.  Just suppose that you are a Palestinian -- and this is your perspective (copied from Al Jazerra coverage on the war) To create the State of Israel, Zionist forces attacked major Palestinian cities and destroyed some 530 villages. Approximately 13,000 Palestinians were killed in 1948, with more than 750,000 expelled from their homes and becoming refugees – the climax of the Zionist movement’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Today, the refugees and their descendants number more than seven million. Many still languish in refugee camps in neighbouring Arab countries, waiting to return to their homeland. (source https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps-and-data-visualisations)

And today's strikes by Israel killed 22 Palestinians, including 5 children. (source:  https://apnews.com/article/israel-iran-hamas-latest-04-29-2024-28196afeb6e34c3a287770f71187cc4e)

Wikipedia says the death toll includes 14,000 children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war) killed in the 6 months since October 7.

So there you are, a Palestinian.  Israeli fighters are killing your relatives and some of those are babies and young kids.  Does the killing (and you could call it murder) of people in your area incite you to surrender and agree to terms or does it make you so mad that you want to go in and kill all of them in retaliation?

For most people the answer is "I'm going to find the people who did this and do it to them, too!"

Israel's over-the-top slaughter of people is NOT self-defense and isn't inspiring anyone to surrender (there's an odd belief that bombing people into submission works.)  If it was happening in America, it wouldn't inspire you to surrender... or even negotiate.

Palestinians are humans, just like you.  If you were in a situation where another country was attacking, think about what tactics WOULD make you sit down and negotiate at the negotiating table.  In general, things like access and aid to help you and your country heal and build back (the carrot, so to speak) would get most people moving toward peace -- if you can get the attackers to Just Stop.  In fact, a promise of return to normalcy might get you to shut down the attackers.
 

Which is why many nations have stepped in to try and broker treaties that involve the exchange of prisoners and safety for aid workers.

Do you have any source for that statistic (not a blog, please, nor an op-ed.)

It's a horrible situation and words and diplomacy aren't doing a lot right now.  Israel shows no signs of stopping and neither does Hamas.  It's going to take squeezing Israel with financial sanctions (such as companies withdrawing from them) and stopping sales and shipping of weapons to get them to stop the killings and putting pressure on the allies of Hamas to get them to the table.

Protests do have a useful function -- spurring companies (sources of finance and material goods) to pressure these allies into a course where they will bring both forces to the negotiating table and to stop the killing.  But there will always be troublemakers whose grudges run so deep that they will eagerly attack in order to provoke responses.

---

Remember the duck-and-cover drills for atomic bomb attacks?

Good times... good times (kidding, folks.  I'm kidding.)

---

You might want to check the sources of the sources that you quote.  When I looked up the articles, I find that the main sources for your first article is not a standard news source but rather a right-wing source with a mission statement of "end the practice used by certain self-declared 'humanitarian NGOs' of exploiting the label 'universal human rights values' to promote politically and ideologically motivated agendas".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor

So you're not getting an unbiased source there.  You might want to dig a bit in less politically-aligned sources.

(04-29-2024, 12:37 PM)Byrd Wrote: Well... I'm not in the Israeli government nor do I have access to what their military capacity is.  However, when they were outraged and mourning, the world mourned with them.  A return strike (as I've said before) on Hamas would have gained them support -- up to a point.

There were 695 people killed outright in the October 7 raid. (French source here: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths)

Israeli response resulted in (count is ongoing) has been to kill 32,000 people (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forces-kill-nine-palestinians-west-bank-24-hours-wafa-news-agency-says-2024-03-21/ and confirmed by many sources.)

That's FIFTY TIMES the death toll from October 7.

That's not an eye-for-an-eye but rather an-entire-family-for-one-eye (not to mention the complete destruction of roads, cities, towns, infrastructure, animals, etc.)


And that's why the world is outraged.  

Possibly because Israel hasn't stopped?

Look... I can't answer that.  Nobody but the people who are holding the hostages (and their superiors) can actually answer that.   All we know is that they haven't.

I think something got lost there in your typing?  

But... let's stop and look at it from a "boots on the ground" perspective.  Just suppose that you are a Palestinian -- and this is your perspective (copied from Al Jazerra coverage on the war) To create the State of Israel, Zionist forces attacked major Palestinian cities and destroyed some 530 villages. Approximately 13,000 Palestinians were killed in 1948, with more than 750,000 expelled from their homes and becoming refugees – the climax of the Zionist movement’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Today, the refugees and their descendants number more than seven million. Many still languish in refugee camps in neighbouring Arab countries, waiting to return to their homeland. (source https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps-and-data-visualisations)

And today's strikes by Israel killed 22 Palestinians, including 5 children. (source:  https://apnews.com/article/israel-iran-hamas-latest-04-29-2024-28196afeb6e34c3a287770f71187cc4e)

Wikipedia says the death toll includes 14,000 children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war) killed in the 6 months since October 7.

So there you are, a Palestinian.  Israeli fighters are killing your relatives and some of those are babies and young kids.  Does the killing (and you could call it murder) of people in your area incite you to surrender and agree to terms or does it make you so mad that you want to go in and kill all of them in retaliation?

For most people the answer is "I'm going to find the people who did this and do it to them, too!"

Israel's over-the-top slaughter of people is NOT self-defense and isn't inspiring anyone to surrender (there's an odd belief that bombing people into submission works.)  If it was happening in America, it wouldn't inspire you to surrender... or even negotiate.

Palestinians are humans, just like you.  If you were in a situation where another country was attacking, think about what tactics WOULD make you sit down and negotiate at the negotiating table.  In general, things like access and aid to help you and your country heal and build back (the carrot, so to speak) would get most people moving toward peace -- if you can get the attackers to Just Stop.  In fact, a promise of return to normalcy might get you to shut down the attackers.
 

Which is why many nations have stepped in to try and broker treaties that involve the exchange of prisoners and safety for aid workers.

Do you have any source for that statistic (not a blog, please, nor an op-ed.)

It's a horrible situation and words and diplomacy aren't doing a lot right now.  Israel shows no signs of stopping and neither does Hamas.  It's going to take squeezing Israel with financial sanctions (such as companies withdrawing from them) and stopping sales and shipping of weapons to get them to stop the killings and putting pressure on the allies of Hamas to get them to the table.

Protests do have a useful function -- spurring companies (sources of finance and material goods) to pressure these allies into a course where they will bring both forces to the negotiating table and to stop the killing.  But there will always be troublemakers whose grudges run so deep that they will eagerly attack in order to provoke responses.

---

Remember the duck-and-cover drills for atomic bomb attacks?

Good times... good times (kidding, folks.  I'm kidding.)

---

You might want to check the sources of the sources that you quote.  When I looked up the articles, I find that the main sources for your first article is not a standard news source but rather a right-wing source with a mission statement of "end the practice used by certain self-declared 'humanitarian NGOs' of exploiting the label 'universal human rights values' to promote politically and ideologically motivated agendas".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor

So you're not getting an unbiased source there.  You might want to dig a bit in less politically-aligned sources.

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Quote:We had today in my hometown promises from the Emory protestors That there will be hundreds of 10/7s if not thousands in Israel and America. Are those empty terroristic threats? Thats not peaceful protesting... 

 Israel's response after 10/7 had to be swift, violent and overwhelming, it's all the Middle East understands. 

Hell there are likely to be copycat attempts for years, once Gaza is over.  Regardless

I think something got lost there in your typing?  Should fixed now see above

Quote:Dueling Gaza protests at UCLA draw hundreds as USC sees peaceful demonstration

Quote: 
Many Americans support Israel over the terrorist organization Hamas in a poll released on Monday, with 80% of respondents saying they support Israel more in the conflict.
The poll comes as anti-Israel groups hunker down at dozens of colleges and universities nationwide. The groups have been protesting over the war, with students calling for their schools to cut financial ties with Israel, and divest from companies that have helped Israel. There have also been threats made against Jewish students.
The report by the Harvard CAPS-Harris Poll found older voters supported Israel more than younger voters, with over 90% of voters older than 54 claiming they support Israel over Hamas. Among voters aged 45 to 54, 85% said they support Israel, and three quarters of the next bracket down said the same. But among younger voters aged 18-24, just 57% said they support Israel, and 64% of voters 25 to 34 said the same.

Quote:Israel/Palestine ranks 15th on the list of issues most important to 18-29 year olds, per spring 2024 Harvard Youth Poll. https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/47th-edition-spring-2024

Quote:An overwhelming majority of Americans support Israel in its war against Hamas over the militant group running the Gaza Strip, according to a new poll. 
The Harvard CAPS-Harris survey shared with The Hill showed 80 percent of registered voters said they support Israel more in the war, while 20 percent said they support Hamas more. That is about in line with the poll’s findings from last month, when 79 percent indicated they support Israel more. 
In this month’s poll, older age groups were much more likely to be supportive of Israel than younger respondents, though a clear majority of each age group supported Israel more than Hamas. More than 90 percent of those 65 years old and older and of those 55 to 64 said they support Israel more, while 85 percent of those 45 to 54 and three-quarters of those 35 to 44 said the same. 
Support for Israel was the lowest among the youngest age groups. Pollsters found 64 percent of those 25 to 34 and 57 percent of those 18 to 24 said they support Israel more, while the rest of those age groups said they support Hamas more. 

(04-29-2024, 06:16 PM)DontTreadOnMe Wrote:   I just had a thought.  I cannot speak to non-USA protests.  
But I do believe many of these "protesters"  are either joiners-on from social media, or paid provocateurs and/or antifa.
Much like the warm months leading to the 2020 POTUS election, this may be the civil unrest of this Election Cycle.
 

Quote:The University of Florida threatened pro-Palestinian student demonstrators with suspension and banishment from campus for three years if they violate a host of rules of behavior over protests that continued for a third day Friday.
 
The university said employees or professors caught breaking its rules would be fired.
Some of the rules were specific, such as prohibiting protesters from using bullhorns or speakers to amplify their voices, possessing weapons or protesting inside buildings on campus. Other rules were far more vague, such as one that said “no disruption,” or another that said signs must be carried in hands at all times.
Campus police circulated the list of prohibited activities late Thursday as about 50 protesters gathered for a second day of demonstrations. A university spokeswoman early Friday confirmed the authenticity of the document.
It said permitted activities included “speech,” “expressing viewpoints” and “holding signs in hands.” It wasn’t clear whether temporarily dropping a sign during hours-long protests would end in an arrest or trespass order.

(04-29-2024, 09:37 PM)Kenzo Wrote: Columbia University faculty marched in to protect the protestors wtf!

NOW: Columbia University faculty link arms and form a wall in front of the entrance to the ‘Gaza Solidarity Encampment’ as hundreds of students encircle the both lawns Students remaining in the encampment were told they could face disciplinary action after 2PM

(04-29-2024, 10:15 PM)putnam6 Wrote: Yes unfortunately select universities have a bit more support, but it's barely over 5% if that of the faculty and student body at Columbia, the student body is over 36,000

[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMXd4zHXoAAzesu?format=png&name=900x900]