(10-24-2024, 09:55 AM)putnam6 Wrote: While it is better for the masses to just "entertain" beliefs and conspiratorial models, rather than holding them most times we move our enlightenment forward based on the actions of those who do hold specific beliefs and conspiratorial models.

Galileo wasn't jailed because he entertained the thought that the sun was the center of our solar system, he was jailed because he held to his assertion that the sun, not the Earth was the center of our solar system.

After all 200,000 years ago some monkeys held the belief they didn't have to just live eat and sleep in trees and forests he held the belief he was tired of pissing off a tree branch and living off leaves and seeds and nuts. 

So they climbed down from the trees, and it didn't matter that a few hours later they all had been killed by larger predatory animals. That action set in motion where eventually 500 years later another group of monkeys decided to screw this get out of these trees let's walk around on the plains where again they were promptly devoured. This process likely continued for 10,000 years till one monkey or a small group of monkeys escaped being killed and lived long enough to walk upright eat a more diverse and nutrient diet, to eventually use tools. Soon they became more experienced and instead of just adapting they became predatory and killed or absorbed other monkey groups. 

We haven't evolved we just took those basic premises and upscaled them, today's rockets, missiles and artillery were our monkey ancestors' rocks and clubs

(10-24-2024, 09:55 AM)putnam6 Wrote: Galileo wasn't jailed because he entertained the thought that the sun was the center of our solar system, he was jailed because he held to his assertion that the sun, not the Earth was the center of our solar system.

(10-24-2024, 10:07 AM)Maxmars Wrote: And yet people can witness the same events, in the same context, with people who would be considered equals and peers, and they still embrace the shaming, bullying, derision, ostracization of people who disagree - regardless of 'subject.'  What does that say about where our heads are at?

(10-24-2024, 10:15 AM)UltraBudgie Wrote: He held strong to his faith in the vision the model he presented tried to incorporate. He actually would have been better off being a little less attached to the rational explanations he gave, for example, of how the tides worked, as they turned out to be quite contradictory. Nothing wrong with that, in fact laudable. As is the irrational vision of a larger world that drove those monkeys you mention in the mythology you presented.

I suppose I should clarify, that in my previous post when I mentioned "belief-systems", I was referring specifically to rational, formal belief-systems. Those which may be delineated by a set of facts, observations, assertions, hypotheses, etc., and not to the irrational or transcendent "belief" which drives vision, gives us the impetus to develop and strive, and as you rightly point out, is irrepressible and rooted beyond the personal.

Quote:Eventually, it comes down to practical utility. So what about any wild conspiracy theories: how do they affect "real life"? How are they useful? What do they show us, and are they persistently worthwhile? And those are "open-ended" questions.

This is why I feel it is better to "entertain" beliefs and conspiratorial models, rather than "holding" them.

• Humanity has not evolved as much as it has devolved, in terms of spiritual and intellectual clarity.
  
• We are in the age of the kali yuga.
  
• History did not begin when science thinks it did.
  

(10-24-2024, 04:56 PM)UltraBudgie Wrote: Yes I really am that contrarian (or open-minded, or ungrounded, or crazy; however you want to label it) when I choose to be. See, when I "entertain" beliefs or theories, I don't just pull their string and watch them dance. I invite them in, feed them, and play host. Really try my best to actually believe, and see where the evening goes. If they become annoying or disrespectful, I give them the boot. Please do not try this technique willy-nilly! It requires "child proofing" the house, locking up all your valuables, and years of self-auditing. And it is not for the unempathic. But it is worth it.

Not to make this about me. Three entries I would add to the list, though, that would probably make good threads:

• Humanity has not evolved as much as it has devolved, in terms of spiritual and intellectual clarity.
  
• We are in the age of the kali yuga.
  
• History did not begin when science thinks it did.
  

Usually I find that the belief in "evolution" can quite easily map inside the belief "demonstrable evidence will be consistent with evolutionary theory", in some of the wilder belief-systems. For example, did God plant all those fossils 6000 years ago? Or is the matrix retconning everything as we attempt to rationally pin it down? Stuff like that.

I guess I asked to be called out, by deliberately using the term "mythology", because I wanted an opportunity to make the point, a la Joseph Campbell, that mythos is neither meaningfully "true" or "false", in a scientific sense, or at least that's irrelevant to it's larger truth in human culture.

(10-24-2024, 04:56 PM)UltraBudgie Wrote: Yes I really am that contrarian (or open-minded, or ungrounded, or crazy; however you want to label it) when I choose to be. See, when I "entertain" beliefs or theories, I don't just pull their string and watch them dance. I invite them in, feed them, and play host. Really try my best to actually believe, and see where the evening goes. If they become annoying or disrespectful, I give them the boot. Please do not try this technique willy-nilly! It requires "child proofing" the house, locking up all your valuables, and years of self-auditing. And it is not for the unempathic. But it is worth it.

Not to make this about me. Three entries I would add to the list, though, that would probably make good threads:

• Humanity has not evolved as much as it has devolved, in terms of spiritual and intellectual clarity.
  
• We are in the age of the kali yuga.
  
• History did not begin when science thinks it did.
  

Usually I find that the belief in "evolution" can quite easily map inside the belief "demonstrable evidence will be consistent with evolutionary theory", in some of the wilder belief-systems. For example, did God plant all those fossils 6000 years ago? Or is the matrix retconning everything as we attempt to rationally pin it down? Stuff like that.

I guess I asked to be called out, by deliberately using the term "mythology", because I wanted an opportunity to make the point, a la Joseph Campbell, that mythos is neither meaningfully "true" or "false", in a scientific sense, or at least that's irrelevant to it's larger truth in human culture.

(10-24-2024, 07:18 PM)UltraBudgie Wrote: oh dear sad guru has awesome beard. that is all i will say about him. i suppose is like asking if the age of pisces has ended it depends on your calender if you want to use number for it but may a better answer is look around and you tell me? science is neverending, maybe sort of like a fractal always more to look for the more you look, for example "atom" used to mean indivisible, ha! it is sort of a useful rabbit hole though, since we can find digital watches and such down there, and i suppose some people still think that was a pretty neat idea.

okay and blue blue blue skys above me, although i would never have come up with that on my own, the word "blue"; i have always relied on the kindness of strangers when constructing mutually-accessible word <-> sense-memory models. these days i usually just peek out the window and check, just in case.