(06-26-2024, 06:29 AM)FlyingClayDisk Wrote: No, they should not.  My posture is, the hostage issue needs to be largely resolved first.  If there's some independent outstanding individuals (like 1-2) then perhaps there's some leeway, but short of this, no, there should be no outstanding hostages.

I mostly agree but damn, FCD I got daughters just a little bit older than those women they have refused to release, so far. All the hostges have to be accounted for, it's a completely understandable request.

 
Not sure I understand your question, but I'll try to respond.  Reading between the lines of your question, I interpret it as..."Should Sinwar be allowed to live?".  So, I'll answer accordingly.  If this was not your question, then please clarify.  Answer is as follows:

Sinwar is a terrorist, and Hamas are terrorists.  He should be hunted down like any other known terrorist.  Hamas cannot be part of the negotiations, so what Sinwar does and where he does it, as unfortunate as this is, is a separate matter.

I have no doubt Mossad will track Sinwar's ass down eventually, what I am saying is Hamas needs to out of power, ie that's the elimination of Hamas' key leaders and fighters that is pounding Gaza into the dirt. 

 Israel can have the 1st one; it is not an unreasonable demand.  Israel cannot have the 2nd one unless they do it themselves (alone) and stand to bear the consequences of it (again, alone).  This would be akin to Canada asking the US to go assassinate Putin.  It is not the World's responsibility to clean up the entire planet to Israel's satisfaction before they will agree to come to the bargaining table.  That is unreasonable.  Israel has a really bad habit of throwing one or two impossible prerequisites into anything they don't 'want' to negotiate about.  Sorry, but they can require the first demand, but not the second.  If they want that, then they'll need to go do it themselves and suffer the consequences (all on their own).

So you don't think there ought to be sanctions at the very least on Sinwar and some of the surviving leaders? Im not fine with them counting thier billions Qatar and the US doing nothing. We have sanctioned the hell out of Russia Putin and some of thier business men, how is this different. 
 

Negotiate for what?  Both Israel and the Palestinians have legal standing for territory in Mandatory Palestine.  I am not aware of any other group in the region who have this standing.  Therefore, there's nothing for them to negotiate for.  They either become Israelis or Palestinians, or they leave.

Missed my point, if you bend over and give the the Palestinians statehood so soon after 10/7. What's to keep ISIS or Boko Harem or any other terrorist or criminal group from doing copy cat kidnapping, to get ransoms, or more. Just like airlines had so many copy cat highjackers of planes in the 70s. Not to mention a soverign Palestinian statehood within greater Israel would put the average Israeli under more of a daily threat than they already are, Palestinians too for that matter. 

as for the legalities who attacked who leading to the need to for occupation to begin with, remove 1948 and 1967 lost wars and the Palestinians might already have thier statehood. 
Excellent question.  Well, this has happened, more than once actually, not exactly like that, but the Iran hostage crisis was one example, and the Grenada incident was another.  But in direct answer to your question, the response would likely be a surgical rescue operation to free the hostages and kill as many of their directly involved captors as possible.  More directly, the answer would NOT be to invade Mexico and take over the country (which is effectively what Netanyahu is doing).  BTW...this was a great question!  Well thought up and constructed.  It provides an excellent platform to not only answer your question, but to also draw parallels to current situation.

(06-26-2024, 10:59 AM)putnam6 Wrote: Then what... 

Quote:RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — A wartime opinion poll among Palestinians published Wednesday shows a rise in support for Hamas, which appears to have ticked up even in the devastated Gaza Strip, and an overwhelming rejection of Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas, with nearly 90% saying he must resign.
The findings by a Palestinian pollster signal more difficulties ahead for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s stated goal of ending Hamas’ military and governing capabilities.
Washington has called for the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority, currently led by Abbas, to eventually assume control of Gaza and run both territories as a precursor to statehood. U.S. officials have said the PA must be revitalized, without letting on whether this would mean leadership changes.
The PA administers pockets of the Israeli-occupied West Bank and has governed Gaza until a takeover by Hamas militants in 2007. The Palestinians have not held elections since 2006 when Hamas won a parliamentary majority.

Quote:RAMALLAH, West Bank, June 13 (Reuters) - Support for armed struggle as the best means to end Israeli occupation and achieve statehood rose among Palestinians while backing for the militant group Hamas also increased slightly in the last three months, according to an opinion poll.
The poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) showed support for armed struggle climbed by 8 percentage points to 54% of those surveyed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Support for Hamas rose by 6 percentage points to 40%. Fatah, led by President Mahmoud Abbas, had 20% backing.

Quote:However, this can not be a prerequisite to negotiations.  Release of the hostages, yes, but eradication of Hamas, no, this will require more time, and delaying negotiations with this expectation is just a ruse for not negotiating at all.

Quote:The mother of a female Israeli soldier being held captive by Hamas says one of the freed hostages told her that her daughter and the other kidnapped women had been used as slaves to serve the terrorists inside luxury villas.
Shira Albag, whose 19-year-old daughter Liri Albag was kidnapped on Oct. 7, said she spoke to newly rescued hostage Noa Argamani to learn about what her daughter was going through, the Times of Israel reports.
“Noa said that they were slaves, and so were the [female soldiers], including Liri,” Shira said in a statement. “They cleaned the yard, did dishes and prepared food that they were not allowed to eat.

Liri and the four other female soldiers featured in the video are among the some 120 hostages who remain in Gaza more than eight months into the war.
While Israel believes that more than 70 of the hostages are alive, Osama Hamdan, a top Hamas official, claimed Thursday that “no one has any idea” how many hostages are still alive.

(06-26-2024, 08:12 PM)Notran Wrote: The hostage issue must be resolved immediately on both sides.

That said, it's not only Hamas that has hostages. Israel has been detaining without trials thousands of political prisoners and thousands of ordinary Palestinians over the years. Even to this point in time.

Ita an occupying force of an open air prison or concentration camp, you can use any expression you want. The latter I think came from Dr Finkelstein who is a Jewish intellectual and academic and highly critical of the Zionist regime and Zionism as a political movement.

Israel is an apartheid state and it's not a coincidence South Africa accuding them of genocide and various other crimes.

They know very well what is to be living under an apartheid regime where one group of people have been continuously dehumanised. The prerequisite to the war crimes committed against them and genocide.

With reference to the thread I made on Julian Assagne, I am sure if he was around in the last few months, wikileaks would be busy with what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank. Just as he exposed the war crimes commited by the US he cound easily expose the war crimes committed by Israel. There is so much material ready for him and others who expose all sorts of crimes and wrongdoings but on the other hand most of them hwve been exposed despite the zionist lobby and their buddies on MSM trying to cover them up.

(06-26-2024, 09:06 PM)putnam6 Wrote: First of all, FCD Im just discussing this, It's not a matter of me accepting anything it's called a discussion. I have no problem with the thread morphing into the broader Israeli/Palestinian question but, suffice it to say there is plenty of straw being strewn in this thread. 

Im not making wild proclamations all Im doing is bringing the discourse on the topic Ive seen elsewhere to Deny Ignorance and discuss with people who mostly want to hear their opinions. These types of informative discussions are no longer possible in other places. No more no less. 

It is not my intention to irritate you or get you worn out over this, this isn't Im right about your wrong situation, I value your opinion even if I disagree on some points. Im not trying to change anybody's mind all the while Im open that I could be wrong. 

So respectively here are my responses 

The article below was just from December, certainly not all Palestinians actively support Hamas, but enough do that it's a real threat to Israel. Thats the REALITY of whether it's acceptable to anybody

Unless one prescribes to any means necessary argument, which tries to rationalize and validate 10/7. This attitude is prevalent across our campuses and definitely in the Middle East.

Respectfully there was no way Israel could have sent SF units to find the hostages and rescue them, without incurring huge losses specifically because ENOUGH Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas which makes it dangerous as hell for a limited and surgical operation. 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
 Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign 
 
Here's another more recent article..

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-rise-support-armed-struggle-by-palestinians-2024-06-13/Poll shows rise in support by Palestinians for armed struggle

I was under the impression that Mandatory Palestine was rejected by the Arab population in 1948, thus the problem. 

but it's this quote that concerns me, it skews the reality that all sides the Palestinians and Hamas including both routinely deploy delaying tactics, misrepresentations, and outright lies.  

Want it to end?  release the hostages, Im sure plenty of Palestinians know exactly where they are.

We can argue a percentage are scared or intimidated, but not all. Respectfully if it's 10% that's 230,000 Palestinians celebrating 10/7 too the extreme. 

Much like the Palestinians in UNRWA not all were complicit but enough are that it seriously hinders any semblance of what it's supposed to accomplish in Gaza. The same goes for whatever percentage of Palestinians support Hamas, all those tunnels from Rafah to Egypt weren't going to the Bedouin, somebody was supporting Hamas from Egypt, are they part of the negotiations? 

RESPECTFULLY sure it can, which side has stalled negotiations more since October? hell Ive seen Israel accept proposals recently where Hamas pulled back. 

Ive got more a little more

such as snap your fingers BOOM the Palestinians have complete autonomy in the 1948 Mandatory Palestine what happens with Israel? Let's not pretend Jews are assimilated into Arab countries even close to the degree Muslims are assimilated in Israel. So we negotiate and are we supposed to naively believe there won't be terroristic attacks once the Palestinian statehood is established, and the inevitable Israeli responses? 

here's where I do get stuck and I can't get past it FCD

If you think you are worn out imagine the parents of these women, it's hard for a father in me to get past this. Id Ross Perot this shit if my daughter was left behind for Pally statehood negotiations, at least the Iranians didn't do this yes some of the women were soldiers, but it's still no excuse or rationale to violate the Geneva Convention if you want to be recognized with statehood. None, zero, zip, nada. 

How do you negotiate with that while it's still occurring?  

Im of the opinion Hamas had no idea that 10/7 would garner them so many captives, one reason they had to hide them with UN Doctors and according to your posts ordinary Palestinians. That 10% 250,000 approximately seems to be complicit. 

https://nypost.com/2024/06/14/world-news/female-hostages-are-being-held-as-slaves-in-gaza-rescued-captive-says/

---

So tell me again about luxury car dealerships in open-air prisons and concentration camps? Hell Ive seen worse suffering in Mississippi and scarier places in New Orleans, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, DC, and Philly and Chicago.

[Video: https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=cicEEAPaG0EaPvda]


[Video: https://youtu.be/ZQnzHNZojcw?si=TglFJlzIgZXb457F]

(06-29-2024, 05:09 AM)Notran Wrote: I don't understand what you're trying to say I am afraid. What luxury car dealerships??

I do understand you don't have much to say and you left without good arguments to counter my post.

If you want to get an understanding on what is to live in an open air prison/concentration camp then you must listen to the interviews by Norman Finkenstein who is a Jewish intellectual and among the many Jewish who accuse Israel of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

Perhaps you should listen Jewish people all over the world who condemn the government of Israel, the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and the war crimes commited by Israel.

It could be it's inconvenient for your narrative, I get this. But I don't understand what you're trying to do. Are you trying to whitewash the crimes commited by Israel?

Israel is to get investigated for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and possibly genocide.

Everyone stands against atrocities (most people to be precise). But if you can't see and realise Israel is an occupying force committing war crimes and crimes against humanity then you should ask yourself why is it you are resistant and can't accept the facts.

Quote:In a July 2020 online discussion, Finkelstein referred to Holocaust denier David Irving as "a very good historian." This statement has further fueled the controversy surrounding Finkelstein's views on the Holocaust.

Quote:Here’s a look at the main forms of international aid to Gaza:
— From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone. More than 80% of that funding is channeled through the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, who make up three-fourths of Gaza’s population. Some 280,000 children in Gaza attend schools run by UNRWA, which also provides health services and food aid.
— Qatar has provided $1.3 billion in aid to Gaza since 2012 for construction, health services and agriculture. That includes $360 million pledged in January for 2021 and another $500 million pledged for reconstruction after the war in May. Qatar’s aid also goes to needy families and to help pay Hamas government salaries.
 
— The Palestinian Authority says it will spend $1.7 billion on Gaza this year, mainly on salaries for tens of thousands of civil servants who stopped working when Hamas took over in 2007.

— Egypt pledged $500 million in aid after the May war, but it’s unclear how much has materialized. It sent construction crews to clear rubble over the summer.— Germany and other European countries will spend nearly 70 million euros ($80 million) on water projects in Gaza this year, in addition to their contributions to UNRWA.
— The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.
— Israel is granting work permits to 10,000 Gazans who undergo security vetting, providing a crucial source of income for families with no known connection to Hamas.