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+--- Thread: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns (/Thread-Teacher-was-fired-for-refusing-to-call-children-by-their-preferred-pronouns)
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - Maxmars - 06-08-2024
(06-08-2024, 01:19 AM)AnAlternateOpinion Wrote: As much as some would like teachers to teach the curriculum and stick to the three “Rs” as it were, there is a lot more going on in K-12 schools than just the lessons and only someone with a limited black and white understanding of the world would fail to see that.
There is no more crucial time in our lives learning about socialization, the development of our personalities and for gaining our own sense of agency and identity to carry us into our adult lives. How we learn to interact with others and the world and establish our place within it is an inherent part of our school years so to discount these factors as being irrelevant as a part of the educational process would be shortsighted if not foolhardy.
In my opinion if the kids are gender variant or transgender and are known by others and their family a certain way, that this should be respected when politely asked without being a dick about it or trying to make a point. I know from my dealings with trans youth, decades of researching into the subject and from personal experiences that when a teacher acknowledges a student’s identity without trying to make it a political or ideological battleground, it can go a long way toward facilitating the actual learning process and curriculum.
PS
I like the little rainbow reputation thing in the profile of mods and admins. Is this for pride month? LOL
I find your position quite reasonable. (And I apologize if I sounded a bit more harsh that I intended.) What follows is my position, hopefully less abrasively.
Truthfully, socialization is something organic that happens separately from the school tasks at hand... (which is learning, participating in teacher-supervised study, and time which is to be specifically structured for that end.) Young people (children) "socialize" on their own, in their own time, and under their own spectrum of identity. I don't believe that teachers should posture or negotiate their relationships to include anything outside what they are tasked with accomplishing.
Unlike you, I think the most crucial time for socialization is before school age... that's where the foundation of cooperation, respect, and dignity are planted in a person..
I understand and can sympathize with the idea that teachers should and usually do have personal relationships with their students, and I admit that my preference is that it be with all their students at the same time... not intimately delving into an individual students' own personal life... (of course, there are to be exceptions in some emergent cases which can and do come up in certain situations.)
I don't deny that there can be no absolutes, but that fact does not mean there are no boundaries. Engaging in 'ideation of social identity,' purposefully and unilaterally inserted into the relationship is outside the mandate of "teaching"... especially if it means the teacher then becomes the responsible party for that student... and their image "identity."
It troubles me that this teacher is vilified and had their livelihood ended over a student's whining about their sexualized identity-fantasy not being bolstered by someone who shouldn't have to care about it.
Teachers haven't traditionally 'socialized' with their students. School was never before overtly about 'socialization,' socialization happened because it had to, it was part of growing up and experiencing a world in which you are not in control, not "at home."
A students identity was an aspect of it, but not it's center... because the big lessons were "it's not all about me," and "there are other people in the world and we're not all alike." Teachers didn't have to "teach" that lesson... the students learned that on their own, they taught each other... And the teachers never were to be cheerleaders for confrontation, or grandstanding, as many seem to be reflected in the media now.
I suspect that 'activist journalism' in in part responsible for the growing perception that teachers are championing this social behavior... when in fact it is just some teachers... the one's getting the press coverage for a "newsworthy' story. But then 'activism' has become a problem as it is being done for glory and cash all over the place now.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - AnAlternateOpinion - 06-08-2024
(06-08-2024, 02:36 AM)Maxmars Wrote: What follows is my position, hopefully less abrasively.
I didn’t find your comments particularly or overly abrasive but I appreciate your willingness to try to improve. Along those lines I might suggest using phrases like “a student's whining about their sexualized identity-fantasy” and “wallow in their sexuality obsessed perceptions” falls somewhat short of the mark of being less abrasive and demonstrates a general but common misunderstanding of gender atypical and transgender youth due to lack of actual or practical experience in dealing with these scenarios or individuals beyond what is presented in the media.
Quote: And the teachers never were to be cheerleaders for confrontation, or grandstanding, as many seem to be reflected in the media now.
Having reviewed the linked article in the OP, this is indeed a case with this teacher. Would it really have been so hard or earth shattering to simply respect these student’s request and get on with the lessons without turning the whole thing into a political battleground?
To address the suggestion that if a student wants to be called a different name, it should be changed legally and reregistered as such with the school I would like to offer the following:
As today’s youth are more flexible and less rigid in matters of gender and sexuality, the possibility exists a young person might just be experimenting or trying on different identities to figure out what fits them and the timing for a legal name change might not be appropriate or even desired as they might not be ready for a full social transition. There are also costs involved that some families simply can’t afford as the rules and procedures for changing names (and gender) vary from state-to-state.
Even in cases where a child has gone through legal recognition of a gender change there are still those who refuse to use proper names and pronouns which can be pretty emotionally and psychologically devastating to the person involved but who cares about the kid when (conservative) ideology and the right to be an ass (free speech) matters more. To me that’s pretty heartless and certainly not conducive to a student excelling in their studies.
From the outside I’m sure these matters seem pretty cut and dried and black or white but these attitudes lack nuance and ignore the differences between individuals within a widely diverse group.
Quote: I suspect that 'activist journalism' in in part responsible for the growing perception that teachers are championing this social behavior...
Championing what social behavior? Refusing to use a trans kid’s name and pronouns? That’s just asshattery and if your point was the inverse – that some teachers are promoting this “nonsense”, I would like to point out that they have every major medical association in the country backing their position.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - Maxmars - 06-08-2024
(06-08-2024, 04:05 AM)AnAlternateOpinion Wrote: I didn’t find your comments particularly or overly abrasive but I appreciate your willingness to try to improve. Along those lines I might suggest using phrases like “a student's whining about their sexualized identity-fantasy” and “wallow in their sexuality obsessed perceptions” falls somewhat short of the mark of being less abrasive and demonstrates a general but common misunderstanding of gender atypical and transgender youth due to lack of actual or practical experience in dealing with these scenarios or individuals beyond what is presented in the media.
Having reviewed the linked article in the OP, this is indeed a case with this teacher. Would it really have been so hard or earth shattering to simply respect these student’s request and get on with the lessons without turning the whole thing into a political battleground?
To address the suggestion that if a student wants to be called a different name, it should be changed legally and reregistered as such with the school I would like to offer the following:
As today’s youth are more flexible and less rigid in matters of gender and sexuality, the possibility exists a young person might just be experimenting or trying on different identities to figure out what fits them and the timing for a legal name change might not be appropriate or even desired as they might not be ready for a full social transition. There are also costs involved that some families simply can’t afford as the rules and procedures for changing names (and gender) vary from state-to-state.
Even in cases where a child has gone through legal recognition of a gender change there are still those who refuse to use proper names and pronouns which can be pretty emotionally and psychologically devastating to the person involved but who cares about the kid when (conservative) ideology and the right to be an ass (free speech) matters more. To me that’s pretty heartless and certainly not conducive to a student excelling in their studies.
From the outside I’m sure these matters seem pretty cut and dried and black or white but these attitudes lack nuance and ignore the differences between individuals within a widely diverse group.
Championing what social behavior? Refusing to use a trans kid’s name and pronouns? That’s just asshattery and if your point was the inverse – that some teachers are promoting this “nonsense”, I would like to point out that they have every major medical association in the country backing their position.
Excellent! Well said.
Let me address some aspects of this.
I understand and can accept that a 'condition' exists called gender dysphoria... it is a deeply personal and somewhat uncommon situation. I understand that people, in a social setting (such as a school) should be willing to accept that reality. I also understand that it is not a dime-a-dozen occurrence happening in 5 out of every 20 students. It is a matter of some importance that doctors should identify and diagnose this condition - strictly because of its extraordinary impact and rarity.
But it is not the case that youths haven't naturally found themselves questioning their sexual orientation, or their 'fit' in society on a gender basis ever before. It is a natural part of growing up for many. Now, because of the activism element of reporting (and self-reporting,) it is no longer being addressed... it is being celebrated and our dealing with it has become a point of virtue signaling (not meant to imply that's what you're doing.) In many, many cases it is.
The championing I was referring to was just that celebration.
The student could have asked to be referred to by a different name, but is the time allotted for teaching to become the platform for that moment? Is class time the moment for an individuals 'social experiments?' And when the request is rejected, does the student elevate the engagement to the authorities at school? Did the student care at all about the concept of 'purpose' and 'decorum?' Or does heightened sensitivity to sexual orientation and imagery supersede the idea that he or she should just do what they are there to do?
I have lost a lot of patience with the dismissal (not by you) of the reality that the 'gender affirming fad' in the medical industry is immensely profitable and has virtually no liabilities... so much so that it is often done in secret... especially when nearly every teen might be convinced to "try this out" by telling them that they have a condition rather than a phase, which statistically is much more likely to be the case.
I would like to add my sincere thanks to you, especially for your patience. You may have surmised that I am debating you. Not a smarmy "I want to be right debate" but because I - and perhaps many others - need to hear people like you.. Explaining this out - with patience and aplomb. I am deliberately not editing out some of the harsher points because I myself have a problem coping with the nastier persistence of some of my own biases... gender and sexual orientation choice are generally not one of those.
I will admit that sacking the teacher strikes me as tremendously destructive... that people have as much right to not have to abide by the foibles of others as those for whom they are not mere foibles have to be respected.
I don't know the people in this story, nor the antecedents. The student could be a perpetual whining "look at me" child, or some kind of class-clown, or maybe the type that lives to confront and embarrass the teacher. Equally relevant, the teacher could be an ass, a bully, a jerk... God knows I have experienced their existence as well.
But I do find it kind of irritating that the virtue signaling I mentioned before happens all around this issue... It is out of place, in my view. Being gender dysphoric is real and tragic in the way it stresses the person and their social existence... but it is not a "prideful" thing... it is not "an achievement." Yet the narrative always seems to end there... at least in the common media.
Forgive me if I've offended you (or anyone) but sometimes it's better to explore this stuff, than avoid the discomfort and simply remain ignorant.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - AnAlternateOpinion - 06-08-2024
Incoming wall of text. Apologies in advance.
I appreciate your patience and willingness to engage in a discussion rather than an argument and I hear and respect your points of view even if I find many of them contrary to my own.
Let me make it clear I am not a trans apologist, an activist or an ideologue and I find most of the modern transgender narrative and demanding activism to be unproductive and in many cases, completely ludicrous and detrimental to their cause but I have enough knowledge and experience in these matters along with enough of a rebellious streak to disregard much of the dogma because a fair portion of it is bullshit.
Part of my understanding in all of this is because I realize the umbrella term of trans/transgender is so broad, ill-defined and all-encompassing as to be mostly worthless and without examining and understanding things on an individual and unique basis, having a discussion with those that don’t have the same level of experience, intimate knowledge and study in these areas is often quite frustrating to me because most fail to recognize not all levels of transness and not all people lumped into the “transgender” bucket are the same or represent some kind of monolithic entity.
These thoughts alone go against trans dogma as it is an anathema to suggest not all trans folk are the same or that some are more trans than others and please don’t get me started on non-binary “identities” but I digress.
Trans youth is a subject I am passionate and very well informed about and I apologize if I become offensive but my previous online experiences in trying to bring some information and a different perspective to the discourse as well as the spate of ignorant politicized anti-trans legislation sweeping the country pushed by theocratic fascists wannabes (whew! LOL) has me mostly on the defensive. It shouldn’t have to be this way and I understand what a hot button topic trans youth has become and how contentions these discussions can be so I do make an effort to not be an ass but I am not always as successful in that as I would like to be.
Quote: I understand and can accept that a 'condition' exists called gender dysphoria... it is a deeply personal and somewhat uncommon situation. I understand that people, in a social setting (such as a school) should be willing to accept that reality. I also understand that it is not a dime-a-dozen occurrence happening in 5 out of every 20 students. It is a matter of some importance that doctors should identify and diagnose this condition - strictly because of its extraordinary impact and rarity.
I applaud your efforts at acknowledging that genuine gender dysphoria is a legitimate and rare serious condition that demands addressing diagnostically but identifying these kids and separating the wheat from the chaff as it were is not as easy or well defined as in the past with so much variability in gender expression that include 200 made up genders, 96 stupid neo-pronouns and so on because most modern kids reject stereotypes and don’t give two hoots about the gender binary or non heterosexual orientations.
Quote: The student could have asked to be referred to by a different name, but is the time allotted for teaching to become the platform for that moment? Is class time the moment for an individuals 'social experiments?' And when the request is rejected, does the student elevate the engagement to the authorities at school? Did the student care at all about the concept of 'purpose' and 'decorum?' Or does heightened sensitivity to sexual orientation and imagery supersede the idea that he or she should just do what they are there to do?
I think you’re overcomplicating the situation and attributing “purpose and decorum” as being part of normal teenage behaviors and skill sets. In a 20 second exchange – teacher calls a kid Paul whose friends and family know them as Paula and a simple common request for decency and respect is met with obstinate politically motivated denial and refusal to accommodate the student’s appeal. The question becomes who is doing the platforming here, the student or the teacher? If someone insists on calling you Matilda or Maxine instead of Max wouldn’t you be inclined to correct them and when that fails to garner the proper response, to appeal to a higher authority? I don’t blame this kid at all and as this substitute teacher has a history of treating kids in ways they might find rude and offensive, repercussions seem appropriate.
Quote: I have lost a lot of patience with the dismissal (not by you) of the reality that the 'gender affirming fad' in the medical industry is immensely profitable and has virtually no liabilities... so much so that it is often done in secret... especially when nearly every teen might be convinced to "try this out" by telling them that they have a condition rather than a phase, which statistically is much more likely to be the case.
With the fear of presenting a partisan response, my gut reaction is to call out that this is happening as you describe as a right-wing wet dream of misinformation but that wouldn’t be very nice of me. This notion that kids are being pushed into transition or a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is not borne out by the facts. Sure, conservative media capitalizes on this in the rare cases this does happen because it fans the flames of controversy and clicks but by far, this is the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of kids seeking gender affirming care, which may be little more than a place to explore their thoughts and feelings, are unable to obtain it and in 25 U.S. states, such care has now been criminalized which should be a private matter between families and medical professionals.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - Karl12 - 06-08-2024
(06-08-2024, 01:19 AM)AnAlternateOpinion Wrote: decades of researching into the subject
What you have been researching is in no way science, it's just some rich folk trying to rationalize having sex with young children.
They tried it back in the 1960's with BBC London but people were not so gullible back then.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - Byrd - 06-08-2024
(06-07-2024, 06:18 AM)K218b Wrote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13497389/wyoming-teacher-fired-trans-students-preferred-pronouns.html
The student called another teacher who tried to argue the parents of the students gave their permission to be called by another name. The student is a boy identifying as a girl.
Then as the teacher wasn't going to change his mind the Principal stepped in and said the teacher is not welcome back to the school after all he did. Then he was escorted out of the school by the Vice-Principal.
And that's the second time the teacher was fired for the same reason! A similar incident occurred during the spring semester at another school in the same district, Triumph High School. The Principal asked him to leave the premises because he wasn't obviously fit to teach.
I wonder if the education authorities should take the matter further. The teacher refused to call a boy who identified as a girl with another name and a girl who identified as a boy with another name. These teachers deserve not only to be fired but they shouldn't be anywhere near children, let alone be their teachers and mentors. Shame of him! He should be banned from the profession.
I think that anyone entering the profession needs to respect kids -- and this includes calling them by their preferred name.
I experienced SIMILAR problems -- I would ask teachers to call me by my preferred name (since my "birth certificate name" was a source of bullying.) It's not a hard request -- it's a simple accommodation.
Those of you who go by your middle name rather than your first name may also run into this (my husband runs into this all the time) -- it's jarring to be called by a name you don't use.
In fact, calling my husband by his first name (after hie introduced himself with the name he uses and handed over his drivers' license, which shows his Legal First Name) has lost several sales people a sale.
So if that teacher was able to call adults by the name they prefer... I don't see the problem with calling a kid by the name they prefer.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - Karl12 - 06-08-2024
I always thought you were a man Byrd - not that it matters.
Can you not grasp what Jordan is saying here about the inherent dangers of state sponsored absurdity?
Let people believe whatever they want - I think everyone agrees with that one (unless it physically harms children like MAPs).
The government has absolutely no business getting involved - and I've seen what happens when it does.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - putnam6 - 06-08-2024
(06-07-2024, 03:57 PM)FlyersFan Wrote: This is Wyoming, USA .. not the UK.
You don't know how American schools operate.
The school has already made it's decision.
No further action is necessary.
They don't need to destroy the teachers life over it.
And in actuality the teacher was correct.
The name on the official roll is what should have been called.
He was not officially told by administration that it was okay to go by another name.
In order to cover his backend, he HAD to go by the official name.
Common sense and 'by the book'.
If he had said a different name and that different name had turned out not to be okay,
he would have gotten into a lot of trouble.
He did the right thing, covering his backend.
The school was wrong in disciplining him.
But thats Wyomings problem.
You hit the nail on the head, and the reasoning is applicable to a multitude of issues other countries(UK and Europe mostly) rail on the US about
Simply they don't understand state's rights, and what individual states do and do not control. Hell most Americans don't LOL I certainly learned a lot more about my state's voting rights the last few years
It's like completely different voting laws, rules, and protocols vary greatly from state to state, but let's not start that argument yet, right?
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - Maxmars - 06-08-2024
I feel kind of bad in that this conversation is fascinating to me, but somewhat off the mark as it is more general than specific to the thread topic. I'd like to respect the OP and not get into the many aspects into which this could veer.
Perhaps a new thread?
I get the idea about "right-wing wet dream of misinformation" completely. It happens so much now (thank you 'think-tank' media) that it's almost inescapable. But, such 'media story' productions are losing their traction lately... let's hope that continues.
But I think there is a mischaracterization in play in your last paragraph. The care which we should be discussing is medically necessary gender remediation... what's illegal in those states is performing it without the recommendation of a doctor. It seemed prudent to me since surgical gender-reassignment is a one way street, and is a sterilization process... not something a minor should be undergoing because "they just feel like it," (and they have thousands of dollars to burn.)
I say doctor 'recommendation' because I believe that affirms it as a valid medical need...I don't say doctor "approval" because a doctor's 'approval' isn't how 'medical necessity' is defined. Doctor's can "approve of" many things, that doesn't constitute a need.
That's the focus of the legal "criminalization' characterization.
Some media (one side of it anyway) insists on portraying the constraint as tyrannical... but in what way is it tyrannical to wait until the patient's decision are strictly their own, with an understanding that there's no going back, changing your mind, or blaming someone else for the choice to render your body reproductively broken. I'm not saying - and neither is the law - that it's not your right to do it, but not at some clinic "on the sly" before you are even fully grown.
But nevertheless... I think that criminalization angle is about doctors being ultimately accountable for what they do... not the patient. I call it "activist marketing" at work to consider it otherwise.
RE: Teacher was fired for refusing to call children by their preferred pronouns - AnAlternateOpinion - 06-08-2024
(06-08-2024, 05:03 PM)Karl12 Wrote: What you have been researching is in no way science, it's just some rich folk trying to rationalize fucking young children.
Your comments are inappropriate and out of line.
If you can't contribute to the conversation without spreading anything more than a hateful opinion, maybe pick another thread or save this kind of crap for your buddies at ATS.
