(09-22-2025, 04:35 PM)chr0naut Wrote: While I consider myself a follower and disciple of Jesus Christ, I also believe in the necessity of the separation of powers, something that is statutorily upheld in British Common Law and the US Constitution, but is at odds with Christian nationalism (and other theocratic systems such as Sharia). And especially so with the more extreme version of theocracy espoused by Charlie Kirk and MAGA.

According to Jesus, all of the Law and Prophets are encompassed in two laws, Firstly, love God above all else and secondly, love others as you love yourself.

In the question: "Where do rights come from?"
It seems obvious that rights like life, liberty, free speech, equality before the law, and etc. come from people with the power and will to enforce them. Like social contract. That's in contrast to the idea that God or some primordial creator gave them. For if those rights were always in effect in all places and at all times, they would not need any mention.

If a right is there by law but then violated by the people who are meant to enforce it, either by neglect, or conflicting orders, or just ignored by courts, then that right does not exist. God doesn't step in and intervene to free the unlawfully detained or stop the execution of the falsely accused. And a government contractually formed that doesn't have the will to attempt that is in violation of the law that creates it.

Quote:Also, Jesus never said (in the Olivet Discourse) that His 'generation' (as we understand the English word) would see His return. 

I was thinking more of Matthew 16:28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” And additionally, the instances of Jesus saying things like '“The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”' Mark 1:15.

Quote:And while Christianity was not the notional origin of any political systems, it has had 2000 years of influence on very many human cultures. I don't think you can ignore that. Nor is the USA the inventor and pinnacle of civilization that many of its citizens believe about themselves.

And the Europeans used the Bible to justify conquering through genocide and building through slavery. The U.S.A. sucks. Native Americans weren't even considered citizens until 1925. And now ICE is messing with and arresting them because of looks thanks to Supreme Court okaying racial profiling.

(09-22-2025, 07:48 PM)Bootless Wrote: In the question: "Where do rights come from?"
It seems obvious that rights like life, liberty, free speech, equality before the law, and etc. come from people with the power and will to enforce them. Like social contract. That's in contrast to the idea that God or some primordial creator gave them. For if those rights were always in effect in all places and at all times, they would not need any mention.

Those rights are clearly not noted anywhere in the Bible.

It is another case of the pseudo-religious making stuff up to justify themselves.

Quote:If a right is there by law but then violated by the people who are meant to enforce it, either by neglect, or conflicting orders, or just ignored by courts, then that right does not exist. God doesn't step in and intervene to free the unlawfully detained or stop the execution of the falsely accused. And a government contractually formed that doesn't have the will to attempt that is in violation of the law that creates it.

I was thinking more of Matthew 16:28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” And additionally, the instances of Jesus saying things like '“The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”' Mark 1:15.

The coming of Christ's kingdom clearly wasn't 'the last days'. That's conflating different things.

Quote:And the Europeans used the Bible to justify conquering through genocide and building through slavery. The U.S.A. sucks. Native Americans weren't even considered citizens until 1925. And now ICE is messing with and arresting them because of looks thanks to Supreme Court okaying racial profiling.

Precisely. Many of the US founding fathers were tyrants, slavers, smugglers, rapists, adulterers, blackmailers, and tried to murder opponents by duel.

The nation was born in sin.

The point of God-given doesn't mean they are rights that will appear at all times, it means that they are inherent rights in mankind regardless of any law or social construct. Life, Liberty, etc. are not something that are given the right to have by government. They are innate.

This is in contrast to the man, or law-given rights like gun ownership, free press, etc. That is the distinction. It's not that both kinds can't be taken away, but that one kind is innate in every human.

(09-22-2025, 08:28 PM)chr0naut Wrote: The nation was born in sin.

Into the Interior: a vast subdivision, antennae of television to the meaningless sky. In lifeproof houses they hover over the young, sop up a little of what they shut out. Only the young bring anything in, and they are not young very long. (Through the bars of East St. Louis lies the dead frontier, riverboat days.) Illinois and Missouri, miasma of mound-building peoples, groveling worship of the Food Source, cruel and ugly festivals, dead-end horror of the Centipede God reaches from Moundville to the lunar deserts of coastal Peru.

America is not a young land: it is old and dirty and evil before the settlers, before the Indians. The evil is there waiting.

William Burroughs, Naked Lunch

(09-22-2025, 08:28 PM)chr0naut Wrote: The coming of Christ's kingdom clearly wasn't 'the last days'. That's conflating different things.

People have tried to set me straight about the Bible, that it contains beauty if I just looked at it properly. The fault is mine because I spent too many years regarding it as literally true history. I tried. I read Bultmann's (1970). Theology of the New Testament: Complete in One Volume. London: SCM Press, translated from (1948). Theologie des Neuen Testaments. - German original, but it made no sense to me at the time, preconditioning and bias prevented me.

His emphasis was on understanding Jesus' kerygma​​​​​​​. But I didn't.

See: RUDOLF BULTMANN: DE-MYTHOLOGIZING SCRIPTURE 

Quote:Precisely. Many of the US founding fathers were tyrants, slavers, smugglers, rapists, adulterers, blackmailers, and tried to murder opponents by duel.

The nation was born in sin.

But then there were also the devout Christians who saw the New World as the New Promised Land, and sought to literally re-enact the mythological Conquest of Canaan.

Here's a view of something trying to balance that with inclusiveness. I found the video while looking for the World is Not My Home song. I think the White Christian Nationalism of today follows that vein, minus the inclusiveness of course.


Tennessee Ernie Ford | Wayfaring Stranger

(09-22-2025, 08:36 PM)Halfswede Wrote: The point of God-given doesn't mean they are rights that will appear at all times, it means that they are inherent rights in mankind regardless of any law or social construct. Life, Liberty, etc. are not something that are given the right to have by government. They are innate.

This is in contrast to the man, or law-given rights like gun ownership, free press, etc. That is the distinction. It's not that both kinds can't be taken away, but that one kind is innate in every human.

Funny story about how tricky and deceptive my memory is.
I saw this cartoon one time about 1961. I remembered the bargain between the protagonist and the tiger. Over the years, the plot sort of morphed in my mind and memory.

I really came to believe that the moral was "There is no justice in the jungle". I imagined that in the end the tiger was in the cage saying "We had a deal!"

And the girl responds "You were correct all along. There is no justice in the jungle."

Imagine my shock and chagrin when after years of searching for this lost gem, I was wrong about what the intended moral was.

But I still think innate rights are like eat or be eaten, strong kill the weak.
Rules of society differ to give more fairness. 



Girl in the Jungle (English subtitles)

Well... I watched bits of the Kirk memorial.  And since we are talking Christian Nationalism, wasn't it just a lovely call to holy war arms veiled in remembrance? Most fitting send off possible. 

Turning point will still turn... and then join up with Sinclair, The FCC, and The Heritage Foundation at a pancake breakfast..

it FEELS like the rally it was, was the point of it all along. For that unified moment donning halos of virtue. 

But that's not an accusation. The qualifier "it feels like" says "it's an unfounded biased rhetorical opinion..."  that the right has lost their minds in an apostate church of sorts. My opinion. 

is it presumptuous of me to read into that intuition and think a national ban on abortion, same-sex union, and IVF is next up to be sanctified? 

And how is a devout reawakening gonna look with only 40% (at most) devoutly behind the temperance reboot? I dont think its even the 1980s, let alone the 1910s socially.  Satanic Ritual Abuse and Nikki Sixx isn't even making it on daytime television anymore. 

But what happens if the phrase "you cant have liberty without a Christian society" becomes more than just the words of a "fallen patriot and martyr?"

What if it brings all the reverence for blue and comstock laws back from antiquity?

Good luck with that???

(09-22-2025, 09:34 PM)Bootless Wrote: I found the video while looking for the World is Not My Home song.

oh by the way that reminded me of the pete seeger song

(09-22-2025, 11:03 PM)IdeomotorPrisoner Wrote: Well... I watched bits of the Kirk memorial.  And since we are talking Christian Nationalism, wasn't it just a lovely call to holy war arms veiled in remembrance? Most fitting send off possible. 

Actually, the thread was meant to be click bait. I wanted to see all the "love it or leave it!" and the "If you don't stand with hand on heart when you hear the holy anthem ' I'm proud to be an American, because I at least I know I'm free ...' then you are the evil enemy."

But yes, the spectacle of the memorial service was a signal. Here's the reaction of a former LDS MAGA Christian extremist:

One Nation Under THEIR God! 24:42 Video. 'The White Horse Prophecy' is discussed. If anyone wants to skip to Plato's Social Contract explained simply though, that's at 9:00.

Quote:Turning point will still turn... and then join up with Sinclair, The FCC, and The Heritage Foundation at a pancake breakfast..

And PragerU, can't forget them. There's big wheelings and dealings going on there. I'm thinking they replace PBS or even become the new Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Quote:The qualifier "it feels like" says "it's an unfounded biased rhetorical opinion..."  that the right has lost their minds in an apostate church of sorts. My opinion. 

Having been raised in a 'non-apostate' church, I must say, "Jesus warned us about this" when he said "...the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God." -John 16:2.

Of course we were taught as good pacifists:

It is better to die at the hands of fanatic apostate Christians than to be a fanatic apostate Christian killing for God.
Well that seems rather morbid when you look at it. Hmmm

Quote:is it presumptuous of me to read into that intuition and think a national ban on abortion, same-sex union, and IVF is next up to be sanctified? 

Your presumption at least may be based on observation of the past and reason.

(09-23-2025, 08:11 AM)Bootless Wrote: Actually, the thread was meant to be click bait. I wanted to see all the "love it or leave it!" and the "If you don't stand with hand on heart when you hear the holy anthem ' I'm proud to be an American, because I at least I know I'm free ...' then you are the evil enemy."

For the majority of Americans, their country of birth is something that they have no control or say in. They also haven't done anything in their life that elevates them above the rest of humanity, either. To imagine that you have 'specialness' because of where you are born is silly.

Quote:But yes, the spectacle of the memorial service was a signal. Here's the reaction of a former LDS MAGA Christian extremist:

Mainstream Protestant and Catholic Christians do not consider LDS churches to be Christian.

Quote:One Nation Under THEIR God! 24:42 Video. 'The White Horse Prophecy' is discussed. If anyone wants to skip to Plato's Social Contract explained simply though, that's at 9:00.

And PragerU, can't forget them. There's big wheelings and dealings going on there. I'm thinking they replace PBS or even become the new Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Having been raised in a 'non-apostate' church, I must say, "Jesus warned us about this" when he said "...the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God." -John 16:2.

Of course we were taught as good pacifists:

It is better to die at the hands of fanatic apostate Christians than to be a fanatic apostate Christian killing for God.

That statement seems very much limited in scope. It implies that the situation is 'either/or' when both cases presented are not what most would pursue. Most people would not want to kill and would wish to avoid death.

Quote:Well that seems rather morbid when you look at it. Hmmm

Your presumption at least may be based on observation of the past and reason.

I do agree, however that many who call themselves 'Christian', in actuality don't actually follow the teachings of a homeless Jewish preacher (who was fairly adamant that His mission was specifically to the Jewish people) from more than 1,700 years before the USA existed.