(06-16-2025, 01:23 PM)andy06shake Wrote: I know what side my bread is buttered, and ile guarantee you it never has been, or ever will be, Russia side up.  

I agree. Difference is, I don't want that bread at all!
I am going to the different shop across the street and getting some fresher bread with less mold.  The 2 old dogs can fight over that shte. 
Once you realise both sides suck for their own reasons. . . 
I dont want no soviet era jackboot on my neck, but I dont want a technofascist biometric fake money plastic collar on either.

(06-16-2025, 01:32 PM)sahgwa Wrote: I agree. Difference is, I don't want that bread at all!
I am going to the different shop across the street and getting some fresher bread with less mold.  The 2 old dogs can fight over that shte. 
Once you realise both sides suck for their own reasons. . . 
I dont want no soviet era jackboot on my neck, but I dont want a technofascist biometric fake money plastic collar on either.

There is some truth in there also.

As to what's across the street.

Just keep in mind that its apt to be the same crap, with slighhtly diffrent wrapping paper.

Democracy is the best form of government yet devised by man, but at the end of the day it's still a prison where we cannot see the bars.

Existing outside of such through really is not a desirable prospect. 

And the alternatives are rather grim, to say the least.

(06-16-2025, 01:51 PM)andy06shake Wrote: There is some truth in there also.

As to what's across the street.

Just keep in mind that its apt to be the same crap, with slighhtly diffrent wrapping paper.

Democracy is the best form of government yet devised by man, but at the end of the day it's still a prison where we cannot see the bars.

Existing outside of such through really is not a desirable prospect. 

And the alternatives are rather grim, to say the least.

The Dude says 'that's like, your opinion, man'  . Nothing grim in my mind. 
Plenty of alternatives that are even freer , like attempting being totally apolitical and operating out of a kind of wuwei.  Daoism. smile and be polite while flowing around idiots.

(06-16-2025, 03:56 PM)sahgwa Wrote: The Dude says 'that's like, your opinion, man'  . Nothing grim in my mind. 
Plenty of alternatives that are even freer , like attempting being totally apolitical and operating out of a kind of wuwei.  Daoism. smile and be polite while flowing around idiots.

Freedom is illusory, just like security and control.

People require a set of law to interact with one another, else anarchy prevails.

That's just part of the human condition thus far I'm afraid.

If you have a better plan than democracy that encompasses and emphasizes equality, freedom of speech, and the rule of law, as a system of government, I'm all ears?

As to Daoism, well while its deeply philosophical and spiritually enriching religion, it faces criticisms just like the rest of them. 

Promoting passivity, discouraging effort or resistance to injustice doesn't sit right with me.

I would rather walk softly and carry a big stick. 

And Daoist ideas, like traditional medicine and cosmology, often conflict with scientific understanding and progress.

Each to their own, all the same, as many people obviously appreciate the religion's insights into the likes of balance, simplicity, and inner peace.

(06-16-2025, 04:29 PM)andy06shake Wrote: Freedom is illusory, just like security and control.

People require a set of law to interact with one another, else anarchy prevails.

That's just part of the human condition thus far I'm afraid.

If you have a better plan than democracy that encompasses and emphasizes equality, freedom of speech, and the rule of law, as a system of government, I'm all ears?

As to Daoism, well while its deeply philosophical and spiritually enriching religion, it faces criticisms just like the rest of them. 

Promoting passivity, discouraging effort or resistance to injustice doesn't sit right with me.

I would rather walk softly and carry a big stick. 

And Daoist ideas, like traditional medicine and cosmology, often conflict with scientific understanding and progress.

Each to their own, all the same, as many people obviously appreciate the religion's insights into the likes of balance, simplicity, and inner peace.

Daoism is not about passivity. Its about the action that is most harmonious to the whole, or the End. Its the action that is not an action.  That is to say, it is the action without lust of result.  Nonaction is kind of a misnomer because its one of those translation things. 
 Wu wei (traditional Chinese: 無為; simplified Chinese: 无为; pinyin: wúwéi) is a polysemous, ancient Chinese concept expressing an ideal practice of "inaction", "inexertion" or "effortless action",[sup][a][/sup][sup][1][/sup][sup][2][/sup] as a state of personal harmony and free-flowing, spontaneous creative manifestation. In a political context, it also refers to an ideal form or principle of governance or government.[sup][3][/sup]
Wu wei appears as an idea as early as the Spring and Autumn period, with early literary examples in the Classic of Poetry.[sup][4][/sup] It became an important concept in the Confucian Analects,[sup][5][/sup] linking a Confucian ethic of practical morality to a state of being harmonizing intention and action.[sup][6][/sup] It would go on to become a central concept in Legalist statecraft and Daoism, in Daoism as a concept emphasizing alignment with the natural Dao in actions and intentions, avoiding force or haste against the natural order.
Sinologist Jean François Billeter describes wu-wei as a "state of perfect knowledge (understanding) of the coexistence of the situation and perceiver, perfect efficaciousness and the realization of a perfect economy of energy".

(06-16-2025, 11:10 AM)sahgwa Wrote: Like I said in the Bilderburg thread, the 'elite' power structures have a habit of speaking in fluffy progressive friendly helpful terms, but not acting as such. The proof is in the pudding. 
If it weren't so, we would have had peace in Ukraine and Gaza by now, not to mention no usurping of private rights of farmers in the Netherlands, Belgium , Portugal, etc etc

This logic has to stop

(06-16-2025, 09:25 AM)sahgwa Wrote: ...
 The cabinet has recognized that it implements policy based on NATO objectives that are secret. The objectives are related to making society resilient to disruptive events such as war, pandemics and natural disasters ‘. Member of Parliament Pepijn van Houwelingen of Forum for Democracy speaks of “a huge black hole in our democracy ”.
The Schoof cabinet says it wants to make the Netherlands ‘resilient ’, so that the population is well prepared for crisis situations such as sabotage of the drinking water supply, the elimination of electricity and communication networks and biological warfare. resilience objectives ’ (resilience targets)...

So where's the problem? What's so wrong with being prepared for the crisis situations? There's a lot of unrest worldwide at the moment so anything can happen.

NATO is a military alliance so no wonder that it has to keep some level of secrecy. Otherwise, Putin or Xi might learn about its plans by opening a random Western tabloid newspaper.

(06-16-2025, 04:54 PM)sahgwa Wrote: Daoism is not about passivity. Its about the action that is most harmonious to the whole, or the End. Its the action that is not an action.  That is to say, it is the action without lust of result.  Nonaction is kind of a misnomer because its one of those translation things. 
 Wu wei (traditional Chinese: 無為; simplified Chinese: 无为; pinyin: wúwéi) is a polysemous, ancient Chinese concept expressing an ideal practice of "inaction", "inexertion" or "effortless action",[sup][a][/sup][sup][1][/sup][sup][2][/sup] as a state of personal harmony and free-flowing, spontaneous creative manifestation. In a political context, it also refers to an ideal form or principle of governance or government.[sup][3][/sup]
Wu wei appears as an idea as early as the Spring and Autumn period, with early literary examples in the Classic of Poetry.[sup][4][/sup] It became an important concept in the Confucian Analects,[sup][5][/sup] linking a Confucian ethic of practical morality to a state of being harmonizing intention and action.[sup][6][/sup] It would go on to become a central concept in Legalist statecraft and Daoism, in Daoism as a concept emphasizing alignment with the natural Dao in actions and intentions, avoiding force or haste against the natural order.
Sinologist Jean François Billeter describes wu-wei as a "state of perfect knowledge (understanding) of the coexistence of the situation and perceiver, perfect efficaciousness and the realization of a perfect economy of energy".

I'll take your word for it mate, after all, I'm not a Daoist.

I'm correct about freedom, security, and control, being illusory all the same.

And if you take away our rule books, well sit back and watch the show begin.

End of the day the human condition is what it is, no matter which organised religious practice one chooses to subscribe.  

As to "Perfect knowledge" well seems to me thats a concept often discussed in philosophy, theology, and logic.

Referring to the likes of complete infallibility, or the absolute understanding of something with no errors, gaps, or even uncertainties.

In reality through humans can't have perfect knowledge because our senses, memories, and reasoning are limited and sometimes flawed.

Even science only provides provisional truths based on evidence and models.

So it's a useful idea, but i dont know about achievable.

(06-16-2025, 11:42 AM)quintessentone Wrote: Nobody remembers the past or wants to or even considers the future more than 5 years forward, it's monkey/lizard brain tapping into knee-jerk egos, emotions and bad blood fueling conflict.

Speak for yourself. And if that's how you navigate then  you have to know that you can be better and you should be, out if respect to yourself and others. Cheers and good luck with that (thumbs up)

(06-17-2025, 03:30 AM)Anna Wrote: So where's the problem? What's so wrong with being prepared for the crisis situations? There's a lot of unrest worldwide at the moment so anything can happen.

NATO is a military alliance so no wonder that it has to keep some level of secrecy. Otherwise, Putin or Xi might learn about its plans by opening a random Western tabloid newspaper.

The issue here is not military operational secrecy, the issue is telling a national government 'trust us, we cant tell you why we are having you do this' and then having it's goals be secret. Not its operations, its specific goals.