(06-16-2025, 11:10 AM)sahgwa Wrote: Like I said in the Bilderburg thread, the 'elite' power structures have a habit of speaking in fluffy progressive friendly helpful terms, but not acting as such. The proof is in the pudding. 
If it weren't so, we would have had peace in Ukraine and Gaza by now, not to mention no usurping of private rights of farmers in the Netherlands, Belgium , Portugal, etc etc

You mean every other elite power structure, excluding the oligarchy elitist power structure presently existing in the un-United States of America?

(06-16-2025, 11:16 AM)quintessentone Wrote: You mean every other elite power structure, excluding the oligarchy elitist power structure presently existing in the un-United States of America?

Yes and no . Unlike a lot of posters here, I am trying to step outside of a dichotomous world view into something that more accurately portrays the shades of grey and provides alternate avenues of thinking.
I know it is hard to understand but i am not 'rabidly pro or anti' anything.  I am just digging behind the words and scenes to get to the actual outcome of said words and actions.

First of all, the US is not as divided as the MSM would have you believe.  Everyone is going about their business normally unless it is a random nutter out of hundreds of millions of people.

Secondly, YES, the elitist power structure in the USA IS going behind our backs to implement this digital concentration camp under our very noses (see my thread) while the riots and other issues are used as distractions.  

This is no excuse to slip into Orange Man Bad or GO DEMOCRACY, as both simplistic attitudes belay a lack of nuanced understanding of actual boots on the ground reality.

Same thing with NATO, sure defence is great, but they have also proven time and again that they are in it to stick around and make money, even going so far as to foment unrest to create a raison d'etre. See other threads.

(06-16-2025, 11:25 AM)sahgwa Wrote: Yes and no . Unlike a lot of posters here, I am trying to step outside of a dichotomous world view into something that more accurately portrays the shades of grey and provides alternate avenues of thinking.
I know it is hard to understand but i am not 'rabidly pro or anti' anything.  I am just digging behind the words and scenes to get to the actual outcome of said words and actions.

First of all, the US is not as divided as the MSM would have you believe.  Everyone is going about their business normally unless it is a random nutter out of hundreds of millions of people.

Secondly, YES, the elitist power structure in the USA IS going behind our backs to implement this digital concentration camp under our very noses (see my thread) while the riots and other issues are used as distractions.  

This is no excuse to slip into Orange Man Bad or GO DEMOCRACY, as both simplistic attitudes belay a lack of nuanced understanding of actual boots on the ground reality.

Same thing with NATO, sure defence is great, but they have also proven time and again that they are in it to stick around and make money, even going so far as to foment unrest to create a raison d'etre. See other threads.

It's a whole other ball game going on these days, so I will look to what is going on now, not what went on before.

(06-16-2025, 11:34 AM)quintessentone Wrote: It's a whole other ball game going on these days, so I will look to what is going on now, not what went on before.

Shooting yourself in the foot, as are others like you:“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905
Silly monkeys fighting over pieces of the ground indeed.

(06-16-2025, 11:40 AM)sahgwa Wrote: Shooting yourself in the foot, as are others like you:“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905
Silly monkeys fighting over pieces of the ground indeed.

Nobody remembers the past or wants to or even considers the future more than 5 years forward, it's monkey/lizard brain tapping into knee-jerk egos, emotions and bad blood fueling conflict.

(06-16-2025, 11:42 AM)quintessentone Wrote: Nobody remembers the past or wants to or even considers the future more than 5 years forward, it's monkey/lizard brain tapping into knee-jerk egos, emotions and bad blood fueling conflict.

And reflectively knee jerk defending X Y or Z is what I am not doing. I am trying to show the bad behind it all, as well as the good.  Hence the thread.

(06-16-2025, 11:55 AM)sahgwa Wrote: And reflectively knee jerk defending X Y or Z is what I am not doing. I am trying to show the bad behind it all, as well as the good.  Hence the thread.

I know you try but sometimes your perception, interpretation is not what others see and that's okay. As I said before, 'perception is everything' but maybe with rational discussion we can figure it all out together.

(06-16-2025, 09:25 AM)sahgwa Wrote: This is yet more proof to my intuition that NATO is not only a 'too big to fail' corrupt monster, as bad or worse than the Evil Soviet-Wannabe Empire Russia (to paraphrase other posters), but that they have no reason to pursue peace with their money making and they have CAPTURED 'democratic' processes in the whole European Continent.
 Dutch Government Admits It is Obligated to Follow a Secret NATO Agenda
https://deanderekrant.nl/kabinet-erkent-...s-de-baas/
 The cabinet has recognized that it implements policy based on NATO objectives that are secret. The objectives are related to making society resilient to disruptive events such as war, pandemics and natural disasters ‘. Member of Parliament Pepijn van Houwelingen of Forum for Democracy speaks of “a huge black hole in our democracy ”.
The Schoof cabinet says it wants to make the Netherlands ‘resilient ’, so that the population is well prepared for crisis situations such as sabotage of the drinking water supply, the elimination of electricity and communication networks and biological warfare. The Other Newspaper reported last year that the resilience of The Hague comes from NATO. Former Prime Minister Mark Rutte and other heads of government of NATO member states signed in 2023 at a NATO summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius for the implementation of so-called ‘resilience objectives ’ (resilience targets). They promised to take action against these goals.

 

https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/bom...irect=true


They , like all freaky 'elites' hide behind fuzzy warm sounding (to idiots) goals like resiliency, diversity, equity, democracy while blatantly pursuing total economic and social control 'for your own good'

I mean the criticism is valid but not so much the false equivalence.

NATO is not a "corrupt monster" on par with or worse than Russias authoritarian regime.

It is a defensive alliance of 32 ""democratic nations"", built on collective security and mutual consent, not coercion or conquest.

Unlike Russia, which has invaded sovereign nations like Ukraine and Georgia, NATO does not force membership or expand through aggression.

It operates under a transparent, consensus-based system, with member parliaments overseeing contributions and policy.

Corruption exists in all institutions, but NATOs structure includes civilian oversight, public accountability, and independent audits.

Unlike Russia’s centralised, autocratic model marked by censorship, election-rigging, and elite kleptocracy.

NATO protects the sovereignty of small states like Estonia and Montenegro, while Russia routinely undermines neighbors through disinformation, cyberattacks, and military pressure.

Flaws exist mate, but equating a multinational alliance of democracies with a regime that jails dissidents, bombs civilians, and poisons political opponents, somewhat ignores key moral and structural distinctions to say the least.

One simply is not the same as the other or anything reminiscent of the sorts.

(06-16-2025, 12:29 PM)andy06shake Wrote: I mean the criticism is valid but not so much the false equivalence.

NATO is not a "corrupt monster" on par with or worse than Russias authoritarian regime.

It is a defensive alliance of 32 ""democratic nations"", built on collective security and mutual consent, not coercion or conquest.

Unlike Russia, which has invaded sovereign nations like Ukraine and Georgia, NATO does not force membership or expand through aggression.

It operates under a transparent, consensus-based system, with member parliaments overseeing contributions and policy.

Corruption exists in all institutions, but NATOs structure includes civilian oversight, public accountability, and independent audits.

Unlike Russia’s centralised, autocratic model marked by censorship, election-rigging, and elite kleptocracy.

NATO protects the sovereignty of small states like Estonia and Montenegro, while Russia routinely undermines neighbors through disinformation, cyberattacks, and military pressure.

Flaws exist mate, but equating a multinational alliance of democracies with a regime that jails dissidents, bombs civilians, and poisons political opponents, somewhat ignores key moral and structural distinctions to say the least.

One simply is not the same as the other or anything reminiscent of the sorts.

You are being very polite with 'flaws exist!' :D
Of course it is better than , and more transparent than (what I can tell) the Russian government, but like I always repeat, lesser of two evils is no excuse.   A brick is often more transparent than the Russian government.  Doesn't mean it ramming into your head , for example, makes it good!

And your statement that NATO protects sovereignty looks good on paper, but with reports out of the Dutch government, this does not hold much water, when NATO is telling governments what to do and 'classifying' their own operations to said nations. 

It's nothing new though.  You have 2 giants of influence in the geopolitical sphere of the area, NATO/EU and Russia and former Russian republics.  Sadly there is no middle ground because, this Earth is run on easy control mechanisms.

(06-16-2025, 01:06 PM)sahgwa Wrote: You are being very polite with 'flaws exist!' :D
Of course it is better than , and more transparent than (what I can tell) the Russian government, but like I always repeat, lesser of two evils is no excuse.   A brick is often more transparent than the Russian government.  Doesn't mean it ramming into your head , for example, makes it good!

And your statement that NATO protects sovereignty looks good on paper, but with reports out of the Dutch government, this does not hold much water, when NATO is telling governments what to do and 'classifying' their own operations to said nations. 

It's nothing new though.  You have 2 giants of influence in the geopolitical sphere of the area, NATO/EU and Russia and former Russian republics.  Sadly there is no middle ground because, this Earth is run on easy control mechanisms.

Your concerns about NATOs influence are understandable.

But it’s important to note that NATO operates on ""consensus"".

With each member nation retaining full sovereignty and ""democratic oversight"".

Obviously, some operations are classified for security reasons, thats just standard practice, but it's not about controlling member governments.

NATOs transparency and accountability far exceed what exists in authoritarian regimes like Russia.

Over there, decisions are centralised and somewhat opaque, to say the least.

No system is perfect, but NATOs foundation is about collective defense and respect for the rule of law.

Not coercion and invasion, which Russia is all about.

It may have flaws, but its fundamentally different from the heavy handed control you rightly criticising elsewhere and that Russia wields as a matter of fact.

Im old enouth to remember the arse end of the lasty cold war mate.

And ile tell you this, the world would be a far different kettle of fish to contend with without the existence of NATO.

I know what side my bread is buttered, and ile guarantee you it never has been, or ever will be, Russia side up.