Zelensky's Peace Plan

[agit8dchop]

So, for weeks, maybe months we've been hearing about Zelensky's peace plan. Anyone who's been following this war is pretty aware that any kind of 'victory' against Russia is near fanciful. 
I'm unable to confirm the source on this, but Zelensky's peace plan has apparently been released in some circles. It consists of:

1. Invitation to join Nato
2. Domestically sourced and internationally aided Defense
3. Non-Nuclear Strategic Deterrence
4. Economic Strength
5. Post-war battle-hardened army

Now, this just feels like more of the same. Considering the accusations that Kiev and Moscow came to a peace agreement in 2022 and the British PM (on instruction from Washington) killed the deal and forced Ukraine to fight.
Add to this the suspicions of rampant drug use in Zelensky's private arena, accusations of serious corruption and grifting of the billions in aid given you start to wonder what's really going on.

It seems almost daily now there's footage uploaded of Ukranian Soldiers kidnapping Ukranian men off the streets, from parties, shops, disco's and forcing them into the army. Ukraine has suspended elections and banned certain religions. Yet, we're told this is a battle for democracy and freedom. It sure feels like anything but.

So how is this peace plan going to work? There wont be a joining of NATO anytime soon and even if there is I think it will cause the collapse of NATO. Not all European nations are on board with this endless and pointless war and certainly wont survive their own political institutions if they send their young men to die in a war. Any kind of domestic industry aimed at military munitions will quickly be droned, bombed and destroyed by Russia. Non-Nuclear Strategic defense seems.. pointless.. Against a nuclear adversary you're just shooting spitballs at tanks. Economic Strength shouldn't include foreign aid and a post-war battle hardened is a fairy tail when you're kidnapping men off the street's forcing them to fight. 

So where does this end?

Will Ukraine and Russia make a peace deal? - I don't think the relationship between Europe and Russia will ever recover.
Will Zelensky survive? - Surely not, if the Western Powers don't kill him, certainly his own people will when they realize the corruption and theft he was involved in.
Will Ukraine lose? - Possibly, I don't see Russia wanting to be an occupying power like the US in Iraq - so is this the most 'stomachable' outcome?
Will Russia lose? - Doubtful - if they were going to go down, they would have via internal politics. 
What if Trump wins the election? - I think he'll force Ukraine to secede the eastern slither of land and call it a day.
What if Harris (CIA + Deep state) wins the election? -  who, bloody, knows! How far are they really willing to push this?
Will we likely see the first use of nuclear weapons since Nagasaki? - I think we probably will at some point see a small, tactical strike in the eastern Ukranian area.

Whats your thoughts? will Zelenskys Peace plan make a lick of different and how is this war going to end?

[Maxmars]

I look at unilateral peace plans as 'placeholders' for negotiation starting points.  (I assume that both sides are tiring of this.)

Whoever it is that wants to leverage any such 'peace' against NATO "membership" is not thinking clearly.
NATO is a military-focused body, whose existence hinges on the deterrence of  a "military threat." 
It precludes "peaceful" ends because it exists by/for/and because of 'fear of war.'
NATO is an anachronism we inherited from the cold war... it's a bad idea to cater to it... and very costly too.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think negotiating peace under any 'threat' is mostly a losing proposition.
The most effective time to establish a treaty of peace, is during peace-time... 
Once war has begun, peace needs to move a mountain (an angry, wounded, and resentful mountain.)

Peace is achievable (it almost always is) but there are some 'concessions' that will only ensure the peace doesn't last forever. 
(That's because the people aren't making the concession, they only pay for them.)

Money is a big motivator in the "decision-makers" ultimate posture... in modern war, it's those who can afford to endure it that usually win. 
(Which is kind of sad, since it's never their money that pays for it - nor do they usually face the danger of it.)

Ukraine is no bastion of freedom and democracy, and neither is Russia... so this ends up being a hugely wasteful war that's never going to "solve" anything.

[sahgwa]

What did Zelensky say about the elephant in the room: Crimea/Donbas?
Will he accept a peace if Russia keeps all the territory it has won?

[UltraBudgie]

(I assume that both sides are tiring of this.)

That's sounds like a safe assumption, and I think the rest of your comment is reasonable, too.

I've just never seen a "negotiated peace" before, only things that are called that.

[Maxmars]

That's sounds like a safe assumption, and I think the rest of your comment is reasonable, too.

I've just never seen a "negotiated peace" before, only things that are called that.

I grant you that the idea of peace is relative, and quite rooted in personal sincerity.

Most "negotiated" peace is really just expedient compromise... it is usually predicated on a status quo that can never be realistically maintained... hence it fails once the "decider chair" changes hands.  Add to that the troubling aspect of it... such compromises are not usually a matter of "public appeal" but instead "political appeal."  Politics is never a stable way to conduct "international" order... for that we would require a sense of "community" between all parties... not an optimally attainable goal.

Peace, in the idealistic sense, is an ongoing struggle... it has to be "worked for" with conscientious diligence, and an eye towards a 'mutual' future, something which seems a rarity, in my observation.

[UltraBudgie]

Putin did his usual song and dance yesterday, and made several mentions of "negotiations":

In addition, a presidential executive order was issued in Ukraine prohibiting any negotiations with us, which is still in effect. They have to cancel it first. It is ridiculous to even say this. Everyone is calling on us to negotiate while forgetting that the Ukrainian side has prohibited itself to negotiate. It is simply ridiculous.

Is he signalling that he isn't moving forward now?  He did have some comments about nukes.  The entire press conference is worth reading as it has some interesting statistics on BRICS and China and economic growth, too:

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/75349

[xpert11]

Strategically, Ukraine is losing to Russia's personnel number and industrial advantages. (Note how Russia is producing more artillery shells than Ukraine's international friends.) Putin is not showing any interest in a Korean-style armistice in Ukraine. Also, China notes that the U.S. and the international community's support for Ukraine consists more of hot air than war-winning supplies.

Zelensky's peace plan is dead on arrival. Grab a life jacket for the international waters growing rougher.

[UltraBudgie]

From another thread, about Ukraine:

Do you really thing Mr Trump will change anything, if elected? It seems obvious that Russia will eventually get to keep the eastern territories it already has, and UKUSA will continue to pump the meat-grinder until the inevitable civil war in what's left of Ukraine (which hasn't actually existed since 2014) falls into the proper configuration for our "European friends" best advantage.

Right? What's Don going to do? Posture and take credit? Well, sure, but anything else?

So there's some flopsweat from MSNBC today:

This is not the column I wanted to write, and it is certainly not the one you wanted to read today. Our long national nightmare is far from over, but NBC News projects that Donald Trump has beaten Kamala Harris.

I’ll leave it to others to engage in the post-mortem finger-pointing and second-guessing; and I won’t try to sugarcoat the outcome or what it means.

But I would suggest taking a very deep breath. And another one. Because the fights ahead will be even tougher and more dangerous than the ones we’ve been through.

[...]

He will likely abandon Ukraine and begin the process of weakening our alliances.

[...]

Right on time. They sure had that one ready. I guess we're going to see the same play we saw with Afghanistan, where finger-pointing and a "botched pullout" (which was of course deliberate and planned well in advance) took center-stage, rather than the question "Uh, what the hell were those 20 years of death destruction and unlimited budgets all about again?"

So, sometime next spring? Summer? Trump the peace maker. Trump the Putin puppet. Trump the coward. Trump the wise. He is all things to all men. Praise be. Let us all bow down before the narrative.

[FlyersFan]

Make russia small again - Volodymyr Zelenskyy, president of the sovereign country of Ukraine.