History, if psychic powers and conscious immortality were real.

[IzakielSturge]

If, for example, ghosts are real - and just astral travelers without biological vessels - the oldest ghosts would have had the longest time wherein to establish territorial boundaries, develop psychic abilities, and network other ghosts. Any time they wanted, they could possess a fetus right before consciousness developed and assume a new life, with past life recall. 

If telepathy existed, along with concentrations of immortal telepaths, it would be possible to refine mind control at a level rarely suspected by even some of the more paranoid conspiracy theorists. 

So why isn't everyone consciously immortal, and psychic (if these two very occult concepts both exist)? At some point during the evolution of immortal society, someone with clout must have wanted to "take control" of a jumbled, chaotic mess. It may have once been lots and lots of sociopaths and random acts of violence. 

One good reason to restrict immortality, and reincarnate people: social moral values are fairly new. The majority of the oldest immortals would have predated the concept, so that their ego stubbornness would naturally adhere to what's familiar, amoralism and animal indulgence. One "bad" reason: amoral animal immortals may have wanted to keep their power out of the hands of newly evolving moralists and ethicists. 

Aliens could exist. I'm very skeptical of reptilian conspiracy theory, because it tends to attract a bit of anti-semiticism, and to be rooted in anti-semitic seeming material. But what if they did exist, and they were just dinosaur ghosts? 

I suppose the oldest immortals would have to be convinced to permit the "mortals" to evolve immortality and develop psychic powers. Meaning the mortals would have to prove they're not a threat to the most powerful faction(s) of immortals, and/or that the mortals have something they can contribute that the immortals want - that likely can't be obtained by other than the recruit of new immortals. 

Supposedly, "the winner" writes history. 

The more egotistical the immortals are, the higher the probability that they wage war with each other. So there's that.

The way I see the odds, the most immortals have the most objective reason to trust those who don't betray anyone on loyalty (because they could become one of those loyalties) and are otherwise as fair as possible (because an economy of fair culpability potentially unifies all sentient life as one military). Mathematically, it works out so that all sentient life and the biggest niches can become allies,

swarming and defeating anything else.

Hypothetically, this would mean "reincarnation" is actually a memory block programmed into "mortals" to prevent them from becoming powerful - by an X-factor sized and power level military of immortals.

[BeyondKnowledge]

Because it was mentioned, how is the fact there are now more humans alive than all the humans that ever lived and died before figure into it? Were there many soles in reserve that are having their first time through? Are there several copies of the same person living at once?

[argentus]

If, for example, ghosts are real - and just astral travelers without biological vessels - the oldest ghosts would have had the longest time wherein to establish territorial boundaries, develop psychic abilities, and network other ghosts. Any time they wanted, they could possess a fetus right before consciousness developed and assume a new life, with past life recall. 

If telepathy existed, along with concentrations of immortal telepaths, it would be possible to refine mind control at a level rarely suspected by even some of the more paranoid conspiracy theorists. 

So why isn't everyone consciously immortal, and psychic (if these two very occult concepts both exist)? At some point during the evolution of immortal society, someone with clout must have wanted to "take control" of a jumbled, chaotic mess. It may have once been lots and lots of sociopaths and random acts of violence. 

One good reason to restrict immortality, and reincarnate people: social moral values are fairly new. The majority of the oldest immortals would have predated the concept, so that their ego stubbornness would naturally adhere to what's familiar, amoralism and animal indulgence. One "bad" reason: amoral animal immortals may have wanted to keep their power out of the hands of newly evolving moralists and ethicists. 

Aliens could exist. I'm very skeptical of reptilian conspiracy theory, because it tends to attract a bit of anti-semiticism, and to be rooted in anti-semitic seeming material. But what if they did exist, and they were just dinosaur ghosts? 

I suppose the oldest immortals would have to be convinced to permit the "mortals" to evolve immortality and develop psychic powers. Meaning the mortals would have to prove they're not a threat to the most powerful faction(s) of immortals, and/or that the mortals have something they can contribute that the immortals want - that likely can't be obtained by other than the recruit of new immortals. 

Supposedly, "the winner" writes history. 

The more egotistical the immortals are, the higher the probability that they wage war with each other. So there's that.

The way I see the odds, the most immortals have the most objective reason to trust those who don't betray anyone on loyalty (because they could become one of those loyalties) and are otherwise as fair as possible (because an economy of fair culpability potentially unifies all sentient life as one military). Mathematically, it works out so that all sentient life and the biggest niches can become allies,

swarming and defeating anything else.

Hypothetically, this would mean "reincarnation" is actually a memory block programmed into "mortals" to prevent them from becoming powerful - by an X-factor sized and power level military of immortals.

You ask some excellent -- and very dangerous -- questions.  

I don't think all variables are true for all supernatural entities.   I think some "ghosts" are but stains left behind, mostly after horrific occurences.    I think some "ghosts" are entities that could or would not let go and are trapped between worlds, forever seeking something that will allow them to transverse to another existence.   

I think some entities are demonic, and seek to entrap the spirits of living people. 

I believe everyone IS psychic, however as with all communication, one has to be listening to hear.   I think it is like a physical workout -- the more one 'exercises' the more one can hear.  JMHO. 

I believe that reincarnation exists.  I am not certain everyone reincarnates.   I think some souls are sent back to try to learn the lesson again.  I believe that the ultimate goal is the purity of soul that feels love and lightness, but little violence.  I am a gentle and kind person, but I feel that I have several lifetimes to go before purity.

[andy06shake]

"There can be only one"

[IdeomotorPrisoner]

You kinda lose me right away when you say "ghosts are real" or they are immortal disembodied consciousness parasites that take hosts. I know you qualify with an "if," but still...

While I've hung oout with Laura at The Black Lodge, I'm not necessarily sold that Mike and Bob are inhabiting spirits from between two worlds. I think its all of this world. And that weird backmasking dream with the dwarf is more a real-time phenomenon. 

So less Twin Peaks, way more Serenity.

I dont doubt there's wires In the mind that trip or can reconnect in weird ways, but I think its more like River Tam in Firefly where ideas like "neural stripping" or LSD (MKUltra hint) can rewire a mind towards psychic ability. Like you can unlock the power to sift through real-time things like a filter of all that is trending. Or the truth of things. Its how you know their little traitor ass stole Christmas....

And it all lands in a very convenient and plausible place between sanity and schizophrenia.

[midicon]

Hypothetically, this would mean "reincarnation" is actually a memory block programmed into "mortals" to prevent them from becoming powerful - by an X-factor sized and power level military of immortals.

Perhaps at the end of the day we just die. No need for all that immortal stuff.

Wouldn't that be nice?

This life is never enough for some. People always want more.

[IzakielSturge]

Because it was mentioned, how is the fact there are now more humans alive than all the humans that ever lived and died before figure into it? Were there many soles in reserve that are having their first time through? Are there several copies of the same person living at once?

One way it could work, There's the possibility of reincarnation, and the fetus generates a new soul if not possessed before transitioning into a consciousness.

[Bootless]

If, for example, ghosts are real - and just astral travelers without biological vessels - the oldest ghosts would have had the longest time wherein to establish territorial boundaries, develop psychic abilities, and network other ghosts. Any time they wanted, they could possess a fetus right before consciousness developed and assume a new life, with past life recall. 

If non-embodied immortals exist, that is, existing without biological needs,
there would be nothing for them to fear.
There would be nothing over which to fight.
Nothing that one need take from another by which to survive.
No need for armies or wars.

Tao Te Ching, chapter 13

Praise and disgrace cause fear.
Honor and great distress are like the body.

What does it mean that praise and disgrace cause fear?
Praise leads to weakness.
Getting it causes fear, losing it causes fear.
This is why praise and disgrace cause fear.

What does it mean that honor and great distress are like the body?
The reason for great distress is the body.
Without it, what distress could there be?

Therefore:
He who treasures his body as much as the world
Can care for the world.
He who loves his body as much as the world
Can be entrusted with the world.

So physical evolution occurs in a biosphere in which killing and eating and multiplying is the necessary means. Moral evolution is simultaneous. The need for mutual cooperation for the defense and feeding of community and its offspring.

Cities and farms and such are of recent invention, like 10,000 years or so. Greater cooperation between greater numbers of cities becomes necessary. Political morality becomes a thing. We mortal, biological beings attempt to evolve or manufacture an inclusive, sustainable political ethic.

Any way, those are problems that living biological beings must deal with. We will probably extinct ourselves before reaching a sustainable balance.

But if immortality is a thing, it's all irrelevant.
And:
If immortality is not a thing, then it will be irrelevant eventually.

Personally: I don't think immortality is a thing.

[IzakielSturge]

To Bootless:

I don't assume that warfare, territorial disputes, amounts to objectivity. There is pride, aggression, fear, 
there is the want to have power to feel bigger,
the hatred of that which is different or new,
the paranoia that someone might stab you in the back if you let him or her into the "club,"

And maybe there are advantages to biology that ghost form can't sustain. Quality of emotional sentience for example may significantly increase due to the resources available to a biological vessel.

Maybe the oldest ghosts have millions of other ghosts stretching out the size of their emotional consciousness. 

A lot of the variables are X-Factor state.

[midicon]

Therefore:
He who treasures his body as much as the world
Can care for the world.
He who loves his body as much as the world
Can be entrusted with the world.

I love that quote.  The body is life.