Fed-Up Empath

[Maxmars]

It took me many years of life experience to finally (at least) accept that some people are spontaneously attracted to people they don't like... as a gleeful opportunity to be mean-spirited, snide, underhanded, and malignant to the person they "found."  (Almost as if an unconscious, informal, hunt is always underway for a 'chance to shine this way'; and the finding of the target feels like birthday present. 

A layman's hypothesis:

Schadenfreude directly or generally targeted against the person, "jokes" feeding on diminution of the person, physical prodding... extraneous bumps and nudges, 'teasing' jabs;  all manifesting from a person who never previously displayed those traits, until the 'target' becomes highlighted.

Such things either culminate in ugliness, hurt feelings, confused pain, or even sometimes another might propose: "Oh I think she/he likes you..." but maybe this is a naive approach... with a narcissist... Anything is possible, but affection expressed through cruelty has a short shelf-life... ask any battered person.

Whether they will respond reasonably to direct confrontation... (Such conflict is antithetical to a narcissists' success, and the pinnacle of success to a simple bully) depends on each person (one for expectation, the other for emotion)... and narcissism, empathy, impassioned dialogue, or passionate rage... are too complex and ephemeral to generalize by"labeling" a person within any specific moment.

We continuously seem to want to place 'empathy' (and narcissism) on a scale of opposites, they are not opposites in the same way that hate is not the opposite of love. 

If empathy and narcissism are not mutually exclusive, we cannot continue to characterize them in opposition to each other.

Could you imagine the sheer impact an extraordinarily empathic abject narcissist could manifest?

(I'll spare you examples... this is not about individuals... and is an opinionated generalization only.)

[quintessentone]

It took me many years of life experience to finally (at least) accept that some people are spontaneously attracted to people they don't like... as a gleeful opportunity to be mean-spirited, snide, underhanded, and malignant to the person they "found."  (Almost as if an unconscious, informal, hunt is always underway for a 'chance to shine this way'; and the finding of the target feels like birthday present. 

A layman's hypothesis:

Schadenfreude directly or generally targeted against the person, "jokes" feeding on diminution of the person, physical prodding... extraneous bumps and nudges, 'teasing' jabs;  all manifesting from a person who never previously displayed those traits, until the 'target' becomes highlighted.

Such things either culminate in ugliness, hurt feelings, confused pain, or even sometimes another might propose: "Oh I think she/he likes you..." but maybe this is a naive approach... with a narcissist... Anything is possible, but affection expressed through cruelty has a short shelf-life... ask any battered person.

Whether they will respond reasonably to direct confrontation... (Such conflict is antithetical to a narcissists' success, and the pinnacle of success to a simple bully) depends on each person (one for expectation, the other for emotion)... and narcissism, empathy, impassioned dialogue, or passionate rage... are too complex and ephemeral to generalize by"labeling" a person within any specific moment.

We continuously seem to want to place 'empathy' (and narcissism) on a scale of opposites, they are not opposites in the same way that hate is not the opposite of love. 

If empathy and narcissism are not mutually exclusive, we cannot continue to characterize them in opposition to each other.

Could you imagine the sheer impact an extraordinarily empathic abject narcissist could manifest?

(I'll spare you examples... this is not about individuals... and is an opinionated generalization only.)

Generally speaking, narcissists (and sociopaths) do not have empathic feelings however they can understand then use empathy, or what they recognize as empathic behaviours as a tool to control others, or to use for self-serving reasons.

Narcissistic personality disorder - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

Empathy and Personality Disorders | HealthyPlace

Although, the question may arise is: "Could a narcissist logically feel pain when someone else is hurt due to being taught that is the right response, or are they internalizing another's pain to their pain, as a pain perhaps once experienced by them? Who knows, anything is possible.

"Cold Empathy vs. Warm EmpathyContrary to widely held views, Narcissists and Psychopaths may actually possess empathy. They may even be hyper-empathic, attuned to the minutest signals emitted by their victims and endowed with a penetrating "X-ray vision". They tend to abuse their empathic skills by employing them exclusively for personal gain, the extraction of narcissistic supply, or in the pursuit of antisocial and sadistic goals. They regard their ability to empathize as another weapon in their arsenal.
 
I suggest to label the narcissistic psychopath's version of empathy: "cold empathy", akin to the "cold emotions" felt by psychopaths. The cognitive element of empathy is there, but not so its emotional correlate. It is, consequently, a barren, cold, and cerebral kind of intrusive gaze, devoid of compassion and a feeling of affinity with one's fellow humans.
 
ADDENDUM - Interview granted to the National Post, Toronto, Canada, July 2003
Q. How important is empathy to proper psychological functioning?
 
A. Empathy is more important socially than it is psychologically. The absence of empathy - for instance in the Narcissistic and Antisocial personality disorders - predisposes people to exploit and abuse others. Empathy is the bedrock of our sense of morality. Arguably, aggressive behavior is as inhibited by empathy at least as much as it is by anticipated punishment.
 
But the existence of empathy in a person is also a sign of self-awareness, a healthy identity, a well-regulated sense of self-worth, and self-love (in the positive sense). Its absence denotes emotional and cognitive immaturity, an inability to love, to truly relate to others, to respect their boundaries and accept their needs, feelings, hopes, fears, choices, and preferences as autonomous entities.""

So perhaps we need another descriptor word instead of 'narcissist', maybe 'warm narcissist'?

Are we getting warmer DI?

[Maxmars]

Generally speaking, narcissists (and sociopaths) do not have empathic feelings however they can understand then use empathy, or what they recognize as empathic behaviours as a tool to control others, or to use for self-serving reasons.

Does that not project the argument that "empathy" is not a "class of character" but a quality of choice?

In fact, is it empathy to just plain be nice?  Some would say yes, most certainly... but think there's an argument that "nice" can be self-serving in many complicated ways...

Is empathy an "internal perceptual level? Or is it a choice of how to be?

Not sure the "clinicians" approach is 'de facto' what it proclaims to be...

after all these medical professionals gave us robust scientific assurances about other things which, turns out, were utter bullshit at worst, or patently guesswork...

A short list:

"Homosexual Panic,"
"Excited delirium,"
"Temporary" Insanity,
Cannabis is a class-III narcotic,
We do not object to doctors participating in waterboarding,
What made COVID a "novel" emergent existential threat.
The W.H.O. is our "mothership," the insurance companies say so.
Treatment is the object of attention... not health outcomes.


Sorry if I seem jaded...

[quintessentone]

Does that not project the argument that "empathy" is not a "class of character" but a quality of choice?

In fact, is it empathy to just plain be nice?  Some would say yes, most certainly... but think there's an argument that "nice" can be self-serving in many complicated ways...

Is empathy an "internal perceptual level? Or is it a choice of how to be?

Not sure the "clinicians" approach is 'de facto' what it proclaims to be...

after all these medical professionals gave us robust scientific assurances about other things which, turns out, were utter bullshit at worst, or patently guesswork...

A short list:

"Homosexual Panic,"
"Excited delirium,"
"Temporary" Insanity,
Cannabis is a class-III narcotic,
We do not object to doctors participating in waterboarding,
What made COVID a "novel" emergent existential threat.
The W.H.O. is our "mothership," the insurance companies say so.
Treatment is the object of attention... not health outcomes.


Sorry if I seem jaded...

Thank goodness some of us challenge authority and some of us continue to learn, adapt (as we go) and grow, even in the sciences. Failures can be stepping stones to successes.

Challenging authority is good because we have to root out who is using propaganda in their area of interest as a control mechanism to further their agenda, while finding out who or what is outside the pyramid scheme that is more so interested in helping humanity (non-profits? religious communities? whistleblowers?).

Perhaps becoming jaded is a symptom of the realization of a collapsing environmental, social and economic system at home or worldwide, which one feels like they have no power or control over, even an iota.

[ANNEE]

I too question that connection and would need more explanation from the person that claims that to be a truth.

In the meantime, I will consider empaths' feelings/thoughts to be driven by the issue at hand, the person's distress levels, and what they feel they can do to assist in the matter. That's just being a considerate and helpful human being.

I'll bet you can feel or read a room when you walk in, am I right?

I'll bet you get vibes from people and instinctively know if you need to ask them "Are you okay?" Or, you know they are not okay.

I know empaths and it is as if they have another gifted (or not a gift, depending on the severity) sense at work.

Reading a room is interesting -- because most people "role play".  

Picking up on a person's need -- I would not use the word compassion -- I would use the word fairness.  As said -- most people role play -- there is discernment of real need.

The video is overly dramatic -- but absolutely correct if that is what Yung actually said. I may have to read some Yung.

Compassion can be fake/deceptive -- fairness can not.

A narcissist could/would role play compassion to benefit themselves.

A narcissist does not care about fairness -- empath and narcissist are not even closely similar.

NOTE:  is it Jung or Yung?  I think I've seen it both ways.  Anyway, not a spelling error.

[quintessentone]

Reading a room is interesting -- because most people "role play".  

Picking up on a person's need -- I would not use the word compassion -- I would use the word fairness.  As said -- most people role play -- there is discernment of real need.

The video is overly dramatic -- but absolutely correct if that is what Yung actually said. I may have to read some Yung.

Compassion can be fake/deceptive -- fairness can not.

A narcissist could/would role play compassion to benefit themselves.

A narcissist does not care about fairness -- empath and narcissist are not even closely similar.

Would you apply the role playing to coworkers, family and friends? I would not because after a time one can see past the masks or walls (not so much role playing) of some people and see their true selves; at least that is my experience.

Because psychology is so much more complex than I can imagine, I'll hold back on saying that narcissists absolutely can't feel empathy, but just how do they learn what it is, how do they feel it, and how do they apply it are the questions? If they absolutely feel it for others it may turn out to be in a warped psychological way not yet understood (?)

[ANNEE]

Would you apply the role playing to coworkers, family and friends? I would not because after a time one can see past the masks or walls (not so much role playing) of some people and see their true selves; at least that is my experience.

Because psychology is so much more complex than I can imagine, I'll hold back on saying that narcissists absolutely can't feel empathy, but just how do they learn what it is, how do they feel it, and how do they apply it are the questions? If they absolutely feel it for others it may turn out to be in a warped psychological way not yet understood (?)

 
Always variables.

I don't believe humans are born a clean slate.  Then you have to take that and fit it into the physical/chaotic world you have been plopped in.

Seeing past the mask.  Masks are for protection and/or deceit.  Are there some people who are truly secure in themselves that they don't need to mask?  I'd say YES - absolutely.  

To me -- being empathic and having empathy are not the same thing.

Feelings are internal -- saying someone makes you feel is incorrect.  How you perceive an external event is from within yourself.  Where are you in understanding your own emotions?

Being highly sensitive can be very dangerous.  As Jung/Yung says the road is long to get to the point of self protection.  A point of choice -- rather than reaction.

[Sirius]

Wait a minute... this isn't a covert Satanic type of thing wherein it's okay to psychologically manipulate and essentially torture "empaths", because it will have some such desired effect, as in something "magical" or whatever.  Is it?  Because some people could interpret it that way! LOL jk jk

Thanks for the Carl Jung videos.  It is a very interesting subject I had never really heard of before.  It makes a lot of sense to me, actually.  But it reminds me a lot of concepts such as energy vampires, mind parasites and overall, demonic attachments, nonetheless...  It could just be your presentation! :D

I love you!

 

I'm glad it all makes sense, shadow work is the first step in becoming a vampire. Congratulations, you are now one 

Always moving

A spec of dust in the black of space

Bright white light crystalize around the spec transforming it

Stalagmites grows and bursts forth in all directions

Shaped like a rose

Dust gathers as it moves through the vastness of space, all the different elements

A rocky sphere forms and within it a cave

In the cave there is an island surround by water

A tree grows there

[UltraBudgie]

okay since no one has said it it's "Jung" but pronounced:

Jung is pronounced as "yuhng," where "y" sounds like the 'y' in 'yes,' "uh" sounds like the 'u' in 'up,' and "ng" sounds like the 'ng' in 'sing.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSEVKGI-MIo

german-swiss

[ANNEE]

okay since no one has said it it's "Jung" but pronounced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSEVKGI-MIo

german-swiss

Thank you